5 ms·

I think you're right, but also the developers you speak of are on inflated salaries, brought about by their proximity and similarity to people who do need to va

I think you're right, but also the developers you speak of are on inflated salaries, brought about by their proximity and similarity to people who do need to value efficiency and cleverness. Run of the mill software developer won't be a good job in a few years once employers realise this.

ehnto 5y ago
> Run of the mill software developer won't be a good job in a few years once employers realise this. It's interesting you bring this up, as one of my long term strands of thinking is that software needs to be more accessible to the greater community, which involves removing the hurdle that is inflated wages. It's my thinking that there's much useful software that doesn't get written because it's not affordable to do so for regular companies with regular profit margins. So I think you're right, but I cautiously welcome the sea change. I can't tell the future so maybe it won't turn out beneficial at all.
- Thiez 5y ago
  If the software is not economical to write then it can't be all that important to the business, right? And if wages are really the problem then wouldn't we expect a lot of such software to pop up outside of silicon valley, where wages for software developers tend to be considerably lower already?
  - ehnto 5y ago
    I think that's a hard question to answer outright, it's going to depend, but you're probably right for a lot of cases. A recent example, a local school needed a new stock management tool for the school invetory, pretty simple stuff, but at a fairly reasonable contractor rate it was far and away too expensive for them. The economic trick we use is to turn it into a SaaS and get a bunch of people on board, but sometimes the problem is too unique or you don't want to take on a SaaS. You just want a small piece of software embedded in the business. There's lots of those small software opportunities in the community, I just think it would be cool to action them.
    - Thiez 5y ago
      I have no experience in that area myself, but I assume most businesses (and schools!) track inventory. I would expect there to be plenty of commercial off-the-shelf inventory tracking solutions by now. Isn't that the case?
      - ehnto 5y ago
        Sort of, it's true there are lots of inventory tracking tools available but this school needed particular requirements that they couldn't find. Some of their requirments were that it needed to: - Run on their intranet - Run on a server they own - Not use user accounts but rather individual pins, anyone can use any pin, they need to match an already used pin system at the school - Work like a kiosk for ordering, enter pin, add items to a perpetual order - Track internal budgeting and generate reports, nonone actually pays or has limits but they wanted to see howmuch budget Pin X was using etc. - Purchase once, no subscriptions So that ruled out SaaS and since almost every modern software company is SaaS or just a desktop application they weren't able to find a reasonable replacement.
        Thiez 5y ago
        Fair enough. I don't really see the advantage of pins over user accounts, and wonder how long it will take them to recoup the costs of developing a custom solution over just paying for a subscription. But if their requirements are not negotiable then it's understandable that custom software will be required.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  I assumed since I got involved in computers (about 1982), and for quite a few years thereafter, that the trade of programming would become obsolete. The arrival of the Lisa, mouse, Mac, GUI encouraged me in the view that soon, anyone would be able to program if they wanted. What I missed is that the main work of a developer is to understand the problem (maybe that's what he means by "insight"? - seems a bit grandiose to me).
Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Software engineering is broad; the glue code developers are more focused on the domain, the broad overview, whereas the nitty gritty ones will look at the smaller fragments of a bigger problem. Don't undervalue developers just because they're not writing leetcode as their day job.
- MillenialMan 5y ago
  This hasn't been my experience at all. Plumber-developers are generally terrible at architecting systems, whereas confident low-level/algorithms programmers tend to also be very good at designing architectures. Personally, I think it's because development is more fractal than people give it credit for, but I think it's also that plumber-developers tend to be intellectually lazy, which is why they specialised in code-plumbing.

ehnto 5y ago

> Run of the mill software developer won't be a good job in a few years once employers realise this. It's interesting you bring this up, as one of my long term strands of thinking is that software needs to be more accessible to the greater community, which involves removing the hurdle that is inflated wages. It's my thinking that there's much useful software that doesn't get written because it's not affordable to do so for regular companies with regular profit margins. So I think you're right, but I cautiously welcome the sea change. I can't tell the future so maybe it won't turn out beneficial at all.

Thiez 5y ago
If the software is not economical to write then it can't be all that important to the business, right? And if wages are really the problem then wouldn't we expect a lot of such software to pop up outside of silicon valley, where wages for software developers tend to be considerably lower already?
- ehnto 5y ago
  I think that's a hard question to answer outright, it's going to depend, but you're probably right for a lot of cases. A recent example, a local school needed a new stock management tool for the school invetory, pretty simple stuff, but at a fairly reasonable contractor rate it was far and away too expensive for them. The economic trick we use is to turn it into a SaaS and get a bunch of people on board, but sometimes the problem is too unique or you don't want to take on a SaaS. You just want a small piece of software embedded in the business. There's lots of those small software opportunities in the community, I just think it would be cool to action them.
  - Thiez 5y ago
    I have no experience in that area myself, but I assume most businesses (and schools!) track inventory. I would expect there to be plenty of commercial off-the-shelf inventory tracking solutions by now. Isn't that the case?
    - ehnto 5y ago
      Sort of, it's true there are lots of inventory tracking tools available but this school needed particular requirements that they couldn't find. Some of their requirments were that it needed to: - Run on their intranet - Run on a server they own - Not use user accounts but rather individual pins, anyone can use any pin, they need to match an already used pin system at the school - Work like a kiosk for ordering, enter pin, add items to a perpetual order - Track internal budgeting and generate reports, nonone actually pays or has limits but they wanted to see howmuch budget Pin X was using etc. - Purchase once, no subscriptions So that ruled out SaaS and since almost every modern software company is SaaS or just a desktop application they weren't able to find a reasonable replacement.
      - Thiez 5y ago
        Fair enough. I don't really see the advantage of pins over user accounts, and wonder how long it will take them to recoup the costs of developing a custom solution over just paying for a subscription. But if their requirements are not negotiable then it's understandable that custom software will be required.
denton-scratch 5y ago
I assumed since I got involved in computers (about 1982), and for quite a few years thereafter, that the trade of programming would become obsolete. The arrival of the Lisa, mouse, Mac, GUI encouraged me in the view that soon, anyone would be able to program if they wanted. What I missed is that the main work of a developer is to understand the problem (maybe that's what he means by "insight"? - seems a bit grandiose to me).

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

Software engineering is broad; the glue code developers are more focused on the domain, the broad overview, whereas the nitty gritty ones will look at the smaller fragments of a bigger problem. Don't undervalue developers just because they're not writing leetcode as their day job.

MillenialMan 5y ago
This hasn't been my experience at all. Plumber-developers are generally terrible at architecting systems, whereas confident low-level/algorithms programmers tend to also be very good at designing architectures. Personally, I think it's because development is more fractal than people give it credit for, but I think it's also that plumber-developers tend to be intellectually lazy, which is why they specialised in code-plumbing.