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I find it very easy to ignore the distinction between defending one's speech, and defending one's freedom-of-speech. ACLU's historical defense of freedom-of-sp
by ponow 5y ago
I find it very easy to ignore the distinction between defending one's speech, and defending one's freedom-of-speech. ACLU's historical defense of freedom-of-speech is now regarded, very regrettably, as defense of the particular utterances being facilitated under that freedom.
It's not unambiguously true that freedom-of-speech itself is substantially responsible for anyone's loss of other rights. We can't even have a public conversation about this without freedom-of-speech, where all relevant ideas and evidence can be openly evaluated, unless there is essentially no gatekeeper (committee, policy, "filter", etc.) deciding on what is relevant or permissible speech. We will only have biased answers if we bias the discussion.
Further, even mere perception about the bias in the discussion (caused by censorship etc.) causes some people to disengage from the discussion altogether, and facilitates the "silo-ing" of groups of people who have little contact with each other. That is not a recipe for a functioning pluralistic society, and ultimately for peace itself.
- wolverine876 5y ago> It's not unambiguously true that freedom-of-speech itself is substantially responsible for anyone's loss of other rights. It is unambiguously true that speech has caused it. Speech is the source of almost all political activity - guns rarely play a role.
- ponow 5y agoThe speech utterances are not transgressions of rights; it is the physical actions: assaults, lynchings, unequal imprisonment for identical crimes, etc. So riling up a bunch of people about how "Trump is a Nazi" ought not be a crime, but if someone immediately punched Trump after hearing that speech, then it was that punch that was the crime (violation of right to physical security / life of victim). I'm assuming that you're not claiming anything like a natural right against exposure to offensive speech ("speech acts").
- wolverine876 5y agoMy point is that when the general gives the order for the war crime and the soldier carries it out, it's the general who is by far the most responsible, even though all they did was speak. The heads of any organization, from a country to a company to a coven - all they do is talk, but they have the most power and are most responsible. The speech is the most significant, powerful part, not the action (with exceptions). For some crimes, no action is necessary beyond speech. (I assume you know that speech can certainly be criminal or tortious: Fraud, slander, incitement, harassment, conspiracy, accessory, violating official secrecy, etc. But I don't think that's the issue here.)