3 ms·

Is this actually true? I remember my grad level engineering classes in which I was the only American. And these weren't tiny grad classes either, at least 10-20

Is this actually true? I remember my grad level engineering classes in which I was the only American. And these weren't tiny grad classes either, at least 10-20 students. Now I'm starting to think all of this is simply the endgame of our education system.

bsder 5y ago
Actually, I would argue that is simply economic rationality. 1) A PhD is generally an economic disaster. For 6+ years you are making less than minimum wage, and only the most technical fields benefit from it economically. Those 6 years put you almost $250K behind someone earning a decent engineering salary--and the working engineer has a 6 year experience record and corresponding professional network. If you have to spend a couple more years as an underpaid Postdoc, you never catch up economically. 2) A quick Master's generally makes good economic sense in a technical field--get it as cheap and fast as you can. It's generally worth a nice salary bump, and it puts you into a slightly different category when layoffs and stuff come around. (Master's degrees often can be considered for "R&D" positions that a Bachelor's is considered unqualified for even with 20+ years of experience--HR rules are stupid.) 3) Advanced degrees in non-technical fields are a HUGE net negative economically. In addition, a non-trivial amount of foreign grad students are sponsored by their government to be there. Colleges love them because they pay full, non-resident prices in cash.
- b9a2cab5 5y ago
  I'd say a large majority of Americans complaining about student debt today have advanced degrees in non-technical fields. The extra earning power you get in the U.S. for STEM degrees far outstrips any cost of college or healthcare compared to Europe.
  - XorNot 5y ago
    What you're ignoring is that employers have been using "has a degree" as a filter for decades now. Any type of position, including the lauded "learn to code" ones, starts with "do you have some type of degree?". This is the rule, and while exceptions exist, they're not common or reliable. It is still generally looked down on to only have a high school education.
    - zepto 5y ago
      I concur. As an engineering manager, I had recruiters question my decision to hire people without degrees, even after they had verified work history and has passed objective tests proving they had the necessary skills.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  So I need to figure out how to translate my recently acquired OMSCS degree into more money, apparently. My current company gave me a lot of 'attaboys' but it has no value otherwise.
  - erichocean 5y ago
    Easy, find a new job. Switching jobs is by far the simplest way to increase your compensation.
  - burlesona 5y ago
    Have you asked for a raise, and ideally also for increased responsibilities? My experience is that people don’t usually get raises without asking for them, and specifically without seriously looking at other jobs. By far the best way to get a raise is to find another job you like, get the offer, then give your boss the chance to match. But if you like the job and would rather keep it, then I recommend telling your manager about this before you start interviewing, so they have time to work the machinery and try to materialize an increase for you if they want to keep you (and have any internal leverage). Unfortunately most company HR programs are f*** up and won’t authorize anything other than token raises for existing employees, whereas the recruiting team will authorize much higher pay in order to actually sign candidates that managers want to hire. Thus you’re really anchored to wherever you started at any given company, and if you want to see a big change in role and comp it’s almost always necessary to change jobs.
    - bsder 5y ago
      > By far the best way to get a raise is to find another job you like, get the offer, then give your boss the chance to match. Don't do this--especially if you like your boss. Invoking "job offer match" machinery is a royal pain in the ass for your boss. If there's a solid chance you'll turn it down anyway, you've just pissed off your boss for no good reason. Just give notice. It's better to simply leave on good terms saying "It's just a really good opportunity" which blocks match offers but leaves open the door to come back in a couple of years for a much higher salary. And, if they can't take that, well, then you probably don't want to be working there anyway.
- ModernMech 5y ago
  > A PhD is generally an economic disaster. At the same time, there are a number of perks that come with getting a Ph.D. that are hard to get without one. For instance in my job as a lecturer, which requires a Ph.D. for the position: - I only work 9 months out of the year, and I'm paid a salary most people don't earn over 12. - I get 9 weeks paid vacation each year (5 weeks between fall and spring semester, 2 weeks at the end of spring semester, 1 week in the fall semester, 1 week in the spring semester). - I only work 4 days a week during regular semesters. Of those 4 days I work maybe 4-5 hours a day. - I can choose to work over the summer semester if I want more money, or I can just take off for 3 months. - I don't really have a boss. The department chair is essentially just another faculty member who fills the role for a while. If I wanted to I could even step up and do it for a couple of years. But other than getting my classes assigned to me, I'm completely autonomous. There's no one monitoring when I come to campus or when I leave. As long as I show up to class, no one cares. - I have the option to go for tenure which gives me unparalleled job security. - I get an assistant to whom I can offload the more boring parts of my job (grading). - I get full tuition for myself if I or any of my dependents want to take classes. This more than makes up that $250k if I want to put my kids through school at my institution. - I can spend 20% of my time contracting for extra income. I've found people pay a premium for the Ph.D. after your signature for things like expert testimony, credential evaluation, and tutoring (rich people who want their kid to get into a top college will pay $300 per hour for a tutor with a Ph.D.). - I have access to a campus community including the libraries, fabrication labs, gyms, pools, cafeterias. You might find these at large tech companies, but you typically won't also find a theatre, sporting events, and concerts right outside your office. - I don't have to work in a high cost of living tech hub. My job is in-demand basically everywhere in the world. If I want to move for a year I can be a visiting professor somewhere else for a while and come back. I don't know of any other job that's really comparable, and a Ph.D. is a hard prereq. More than worth the early economic hit in my opinion.
  - bsder 5y ago
    IF you get a job as a professor. And how many of your classmates also became a professor? Sure, winning the lottery is an excellent way to get through life. You just can't plan around it.
  - 5y ago
dundarious 5y ago
You seem to be contrasting the proportion of US citizens in postgrad education (in your experience) to GP's point about supply and demand in the labor market for low skill, low wage service jobs. What's the relationship there? I don't understand at all.
- tolbish 5y ago
  Yes you are right. However, my gripe is related. I've seen tens of articles posted here about the lack of available talent in engineering and thought there may be parallels to less skilled work.
madengr 5y ago
Ha ha, sounds like my DSP class in grad school. 27 Asians and three white guys.

bsder 5y ago

Actually, I would argue that is simply economic rationality. 1) A PhD is generally an economic disaster. For 6+ years you are making less than minimum wage, and only the most technical fields benefit from it economically. Those 6 years put you almost $250K behind someone earning a decent engineering salary--and the working engineer has a 6 year experience record and corresponding professional network. If you have to spend a couple more years as an underpaid Postdoc, you never catch up economically. 2) A quick Master's generally makes good economic sense in a technical field--get it as cheap and fast as you can. It's generally worth a nice salary bump, and it puts you into a slightly different category when layoffs and stuff come around. (Master's degrees often can be considered for "R&D" positions that a Bachelor's is considered unqualified for even with 20+ years of experience--HR rules are stupid.) 3) Advanced degrees in non-technical fields are a HUGE net negative economically. In addition, a non-trivial amount of foreign grad students are sponsored by their government to be there. Colleges love them because they pay full, non-resident prices in cash.

b9a2cab5 5y ago
I'd say a large majority of Americans complaining about student debt today have advanced degrees in non-technical fields. The extra earning power you get in the U.S. for STEM degrees far outstrips any cost of college or healthcare compared to Europe.
- XorNot 5y ago
  What you're ignoring is that employers have been using "has a degree" as a filter for decades now. Any type of position, including the lauded "learn to code" ones, starts with "do you have some type of degree?". This is the rule, and while exceptions exist, they're not common or reliable. It is still generally looked down on to only have a high school education.
  - zepto 5y ago
    I concur. As an engineering manager, I had recruiters question my decision to hire people without degrees, even after they had verified work history and has passed objective tests proving they had the necessary skills.
rootusrootus 5y ago
So I need to figure out how to translate my recently acquired OMSCS degree into more money, apparently. My current company gave me a lot of 'attaboys' but it has no value otherwise.
- erichocean 5y ago
  Easy, find a new job. Switching jobs is by far the simplest way to increase your compensation.
- burlesona 5y ago
  Have you asked for a raise, and ideally also for increased responsibilities? My experience is that people don’t usually get raises without asking for them, and specifically without seriously looking at other jobs. By far the best way to get a raise is to find another job you like, get the offer, then give your boss the chance to match. But if you like the job and would rather keep it, then I recommend telling your manager about this before you start interviewing, so they have time to work the machinery and try to materialize an increase for you if they want to keep you (and have any internal leverage). Unfortunately most company HR programs are f*** up and won’t authorize anything other than token raises for existing employees, whereas the recruiting team will authorize much higher pay in order to actually sign candidates that managers want to hire. Thus you’re really anchored to wherever you started at any given company, and if you want to see a big change in role and comp it’s almost always necessary to change jobs.
  - bsder 5y ago
    > By far the best way to get a raise is to find another job you like, get the offer, then give your boss the chance to match. Don't do this--especially if you like your boss. Invoking "job offer match" machinery is a royal pain in the ass for your boss. If there's a solid chance you'll turn it down anyway, you've just pissed off your boss for no good reason. Just give notice. It's better to simply leave on good terms saying "It's just a really good opportunity" which blocks match offers but leaves open the door to come back in a couple of years for a much higher salary. And, if they can't take that, well, then you probably don't want to be working there anyway.
ModernMech 5y ago
> A PhD is generally an economic disaster. At the same time, there are a number of perks that come with getting a Ph.D. that are hard to get without one. For instance in my job as a lecturer, which requires a Ph.D. for the position: - I only work 9 months out of the year, and I'm paid a salary most people don't earn over 12. - I get 9 weeks paid vacation each year (5 weeks between fall and spring semester, 2 weeks at the end of spring semester, 1 week in the fall semester, 1 week in the spring semester). - I only work 4 days a week during regular semesters. Of those 4 days I work maybe 4-5 hours a day. - I can choose to work over the summer semester if I want more money, or I can just take off for 3 months. - I don't really have a boss. The department chair is essentially just another faculty member who fills the role for a while. If I wanted to I could even step up and do it for a couple of years. But other than getting my classes assigned to me, I'm completely autonomous. There's no one monitoring when I come to campus or when I leave. As long as I show up to class, no one cares. - I have the option to go for tenure which gives me unparalleled job security. - I get an assistant to whom I can offload the more boring parts of my job (grading). - I get full tuition for myself if I or any of my dependents want to take classes. This more than makes up that $250k if I want to put my kids through school at my institution. - I can spend 20% of my time contracting for extra income. I've found people pay a premium for the Ph.D. after your signature for things like expert testimony, credential evaluation, and tutoring (rich people who want their kid to get into a top college will pay $300 per hour for a tutor with a Ph.D.). - I have access to a campus community including the libraries, fabrication labs, gyms, pools, cafeterias. You might find these at large tech companies, but you typically won't also find a theatre, sporting events, and concerts right outside your office. - I don't have to work in a high cost of living tech hub. My job is in-demand basically everywhere in the world. If I want to move for a year I can be a visiting professor somewhere else for a while and come back. I don't know of any other job that's really comparable, and a Ph.D. is a hard prereq. More than worth the early economic hit in my opinion.
- bsder 5y ago
  IF you get a job as a professor. And how many of your classmates also became a professor? Sure, winning the lottery is an excellent way to get through life. You just can't plan around it.
- 5y ago

dundarious 5y ago

You seem to be contrasting the proportion of US citizens in postgrad education (in your experience) to GP's point about supply and demand in the labor market for low skill, low wage service jobs. What's the relationship there? I don't understand at all.

tolbish 5y ago
Yes you are right. However, my gripe is related. I've seen tens of articles posted here about the lack of available talent in engineering and thought there may be parallels to less skilled work.

madengr 5y ago

Ha ha, sounds like my DSP class in grad school. 27 Asians and three white guys.