4 ms·

No, people fixate on free speech because no other right even makes sense if you don't have free expression. It's the foundation for our democratic society.

tomlockwood 5y ago
No, without existence, there can be no democracy or democratic representation. Being allowed to exist is the most fundamental right.
- ravel-bar-foo 5y ago
  If you don't exist you don't have rights to defend. Did you mean the right to life, as in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
  - tomlockwood 5y ago
    That's precisely my point. Food, water, shelter, air, and good health, are all required before one can begin to pursue the right to free speech.
    - ponow 5y ago
      No, those life essentials are not required _before_ getting the right to freedom-of-speech. Indeed, freedom of speech may be essential to discussing how to arrange a society to enable the procurement of those things. Holding off freedom of speech until "basic needs" are met is, to me, a way to guarantee that a tyrant in a poor country stays in power. Ultimately, those life necessities must be provided by oneself or by someone else, or some combination. Freedom of speech can allow for the best ways of providing these things to be selected. The alternative is that only the prevailing view is considered or approved, often leading to much worse provision of these necessities, including starvation (feudal systems, communism, warlords, etc.).
      - tomlockwood 5y ago
        You can speak without air?
michaelt 5y ago
Eh, countries like Germany seem to have managed OK with banning nazi symbols - it hasn't proven to be a slippery slope leading to a ban on criticising the government, or anything like that.
- toyg 5y ago
  Germany has strong protections for individual freedoms and privacy in their constitution, precisely to avoid an illiberal government from arising ever again. The Nazi ban is effectively the lone exception to the rule. This said, European police generally gets away with a degree of prevarication that North Americans would find unconceivable. The US constitution enshrines the rights of individuals over government, in a way that no European country can match (as far as I know).
  - StavrosK 5y ago
    > This said, European police generally gets away with a degree of prevarication that North Americans would find unconceivable. Not to be inflammatory, but North American police generally gets away with a degree of murder that Europeans find inconceivable.
    - hallway_monitor 5y ago
      Stop the straw man please. No one is going around killing citizens. Something like nine unarmed people per year are killed by US police out of 10 million interactions.
      - StavrosK 5y ago
        Nice statistic, but killings by police are 28 per million in the states versus 1.3 in Germany/France: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enfo...
        skocznymroczny 5y ago

tomlockwood 5y ago

No, without existence, there can be no democracy or democratic representation. Being allowed to exist is the most fundamental right.

ravel-bar-foo 5y ago
If you don't exist you don't have rights to defend. Did you mean the right to life, as in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?
- tomlockwood 5y ago
  That's precisely my point. Food, water, shelter, air, and good health, are all required before one can begin to pursue the right to free speech.
  - ponow 5y ago
    No, those life essentials are not required _before_ getting the right to freedom-of-speech. Indeed, freedom of speech may be essential to discussing how to arrange a society to enable the procurement of those things. Holding off freedom of speech until "basic needs" are met is, to me, a way to guarantee that a tyrant in a poor country stays in power. Ultimately, those life necessities must be provided by oneself or by someone else, or some combination. Freedom of speech can allow for the best ways of providing these things to be selected. The alternative is that only the prevailing view is considered or approved, often leading to much worse provision of these necessities, including starvation (feudal systems, communism, warlords, etc.).
    - tomlockwood 5y ago
      You can speak without air?

michaelt 5y ago

Eh, countries like Germany seem to have managed OK with banning nazi symbols - it hasn't proven to be a slippery slope leading to a ban on criticising the government, or anything like that.

toyg 5y ago
Germany has strong protections for individual freedoms and privacy in their constitution, precisely to avoid an illiberal government from arising ever again. The Nazi ban is effectively the lone exception to the rule. This said, European police generally gets away with a degree of prevarication that North Americans would find unconceivable. The US constitution enshrines the rights of individuals over government, in a way that no European country can match (as far as I know).
- StavrosK 5y ago
  > This said, European police generally gets away with a degree of prevarication that North Americans would find unconceivable. Not to be inflammatory, but North American police generally gets away with a degree of murder that Europeans find inconceivable.
  - hallway_monitor 5y ago
    Stop the straw man please. No one is going around killing citizens. Something like nine unarmed people per year are killed by US police out of 10 million interactions.
    - StavrosK 5y ago
      Nice statistic, but killings by police are 28 per million in the states versus 1.3 in Germany/France: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enfo...
      - skocznymroczny 5y ago