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This past weekend was to have been the annual vigil in the park in Hong Kong where thousands come out every year on June 4 in remembrance of what really happene

by SiVal 5y ago

This past weekend was to have been the annual vigil in the park in Hong Kong where thousands come out every year on June 4 in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square. This year, the park was empty. Not just a few, but empty. Those in power made statements in the Mainland "media", whose job is to persuade people to support those in power, about how misinformation needed to be eliminated and the terrorists and criminal elements behind it stopped for the sake of all the good people of China. Of course in the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. You may have humor and charm, you may be well-behaved and your claims may be correct, but if you are an impediment to the agendas of those in power, they will silence you in whatever ways they can unless others in society restrain them. It is the lesson of history that Noam Chomsky shouted from the rooftops: when you use your power to silence speech you don't like, you are corrupt, regardless of how you try to disguise it, and the more power you have to do it, the more corrupt, until absolute power corrupts absolutely or society refuses to allow it and restrains you.

User23 5y ago
> Of course in the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. The conflict between Cicero and Mark Antony is a splendid case study of influence versus power and how that conflict ends when power chooses to play its hand.
- hungryforcodes 5y ago
  Mark Anthony may not have ultimately been successful (he was though), in which case Cicero may have lasted a bit longer. He was already 63 when he was executed, so it's not like he lived a short life for the age he lived in.
MR4D 5y ago
> the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. This is a spin on the fact that he was a participant in the murder of Caesar. Cicero was trying to take back power that had been lost to a very popular Leader by participating in the murder of said leader.[0] The killers and conspirators involved were all hunted down and killed. [0] - for those not up on Roman institutions, Dictator had a different role than we would ascribe today, albeit with many similarities.
- coffexx 5y ago
  The historical consensus seems to be that Cicero, while probably amenable to the plot, was a witness only, and not involved with the conspirators until after the deed was done.
- philipov 5y ago
  Cicero wasn't murdered for any connection with the assassination of Caesar. He was murdered because Marc Anthony personally hated him for having denounced Anthony in a series of speeches known as the Philippics. When Octavian and Anthony were setting up the Second Triumvirate, Cicero's life was one of Anthony's demands.
  - lr4444lr 5y ago
    He openly praised at least the main conspirator, Cassius, in his letters: http://attalus.org/translate/cassius.html#12.1 http://attalus.org/translate/cassius.html#12.1 He loved the Roman Republic and it's senatorial grandeur, and hated Caesar for his illegal arrogation of power.
  - edmundsauto 5y ago
    Before we laud him as a saint, wasn't Cicero the guy who felt the plebian/patrician divide was just and right? My (poor) memory is that he was across the aisle from Caesar under the auspices of "no commoners" as well as "no dictators".
    - ysavir 5y ago
      No one is lauding him as a saint. It's an objection to likening the murder of Cicero to censorship by the state. Cicero was killed because Antony had a personal vendetta against Cicero. Antony's political partner, Octavian, had a good relationship with Cicero and even looked on him as a father figure. Giving him up to Antony was a compromise he was very unhappy to make (but Antony was not flexible on this demand). Cicero, if anything, is an example of how one can be loud and open with their thoughts and actually get along well with political leaders (and he got on well with Caesar as well, supposedly). His murder is primarily indicative of Antony's pride.
gerdesj 5y ago
"in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square." That event is still remembered across the world. Recently the Register noted that "Tank man" vanished for a while from certain search engines but has made some re-appearances again. It may also surprise you to learn that "Cicero sic in omnibus, et Brutus aderat" (Big C puked in the bus and Brutus had a rat) I understand where you are coming from and I think the notion of: "power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely" is a very, very old notion.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > "Cicero sic in omnibus, et Brutus aderat" This would appear to mean "Cicero [was] this way in everything, and Brutus was there", which comes across as two clauses with absolutely no connection between them. On the other hand, it is comprehensible Latin, unlike "semper ubi sub ubi". Is it a quote from a real source, or was it composed purely for the sake of sounding like English when read in the British standard Latin pronunciation? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciat... )
  - jonquark 5y ago
    See the section about "Down with skool" here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Latin
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      Hm. That original poem is much better English and, of course, completely impossible Latin. I find it interesting that what gerdesj remembered were two lines (in the wrong order) that didn't go together in the English, but which were also the only two lines that made sense as Latin.
      - gerdesj 5y ago
        That's what happens after 40 years, I'm afraid: You get your doggerel out of order and accidentally correct it. I recall those lines that my Latin teacher prefaced with something like "I can't remember the whole thing but ...". I was 10 in 1980 and he was quoting probably from his youth at school or a further 20-30 odd years before then, so I'm recalling something second hand from around 1950-1960! There were some errors. Who knows if he got the "correct" poem to start with. You should hear my rendition of the Jabberwocky. I feel quite sorry for historians.
xwolfi 5y ago
But if June 4 for you is only about Victoria Park, then you're starting to enter religion. What matters is we've discussed it all week in every newspaper, certainly a lot more than we would have done before. The crowds were around the park too, the police had to understand why this was necessary, etc. There s not one hong kong resident last Friday who didn't know what had happened on June 4, so maybe let the covid restrictions play out, and make sure we dont start talking more abt HK problems than tiananmen ?

by SiVal 5y ago

User23 5y ago

> Of course in the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. The conflict between Cicero and Mark Antony is a splendid case study of influence versus power and how that conflict ends when power chooses to play its hand.

hungryforcodes 5y ago
Mark Anthony may not have ultimately been successful (he was though), in which case Cicero may have lasted a bit longer. He was already 63 when he was executed, so it's not like he lived a short life for the age he lived in.

MR4D 5y ago

> the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. This is a spin on the fact that he was a participant in the murder of Caesar. Cicero was trying to take back power that had been lost to a very popular Leader by participating in the murder of said leader.[0] The killers and conspirators involved were all hunted down and killed. [0] - for those not up on Roman institutions, Dictator had a different role than we would ascribe today, albeit with many similarities.

coffexx 5y ago
The historical consensus seems to be that Cicero, while probably amenable to the plot, was a witness only, and not involved with the conspirators until after the deed was done.
philipov 5y ago
Cicero wasn't murdered for any connection with the assassination of Caesar. He was murdered because Marc Anthony personally hated him for having denounced Anthony in a series of speeches known as the Philippics. When Octavian and Anthony were setting up the Second Triumvirate, Cicero's life was one of Anthony's demands.
- lr4444lr 5y ago
  He openly praised at least the main conspirator, Cassius, in his letters: http://attalus.org/translate/cassius.html#12.1 http://attalus.org/translate/cassius.html#12.1 He loved the Roman Republic and it's senatorial grandeur, and hated Caesar for his illegal arrogation of power.
- edmundsauto 5y ago
  Before we laud him as a saint, wasn't Cicero the guy who felt the plebian/patrician divide was just and right? My (poor) memory is that he was across the aisle from Caesar under the auspices of "no commoners" as well as "no dictators".
  - ysavir 5y ago
    No one is lauding him as a saint. It's an objection to likening the murder of Cicero to censorship by the state. Cicero was killed because Antony had a personal vendetta against Cicero. Antony's political partner, Octavian, had a good relationship with Cicero and even looked on him as a father figure. Giving him up to Antony was a compromise he was very unhappy to make (but Antony was not flexible on this demand). Cicero, if anything, is an example of how one can be loud and open with their thoughts and actually get along well with political leaders (and he got on well with Caesar as well, supposedly). His murder is primarily indicative of Antony's pride.

gerdesj 5y ago

"in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square." That event is still remembered across the world. Recently the Register noted that "Tank man" vanished for a while from certain search engines but has made some re-appearances again. It may also surprise you to learn that "Cicero sic in omnibus, et Brutus aderat" (Big C puked in the bus and Brutus had a rat) I understand where you are coming from and I think the notion of: "power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely" is a very, very old notion.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> "Cicero sic in omnibus, et Brutus aderat" This would appear to mean "Cicero [was] this way in everything, and Brutus was there", which comes across as two clauses with absolutely no connection between them. On the other hand, it is comprehensible Latin, unlike "semper ubi sub ubi". Is it a quote from a real source, or was it composed purely for the sake of sounding like English when read in the British standard Latin pronunciation? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciat... )
- jonquark 5y ago
  See the section about "Down with skool" here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Latin
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    Hm. That original poem is much better English and, of course, completely impossible Latin. I find it interesting that what gerdesj remembered were two lines (in the wrong order) that didn't go together in the English, but which were also the only two lines that made sense as Latin.
    - gerdesj 5y ago
      That's what happens after 40 years, I'm afraid: You get your doggerel out of order and accidentally correct it. I recall those lines that my Latin teacher prefaced with something like "I can't remember the whole thing but ...". I was 10 in 1980 and he was quoting probably from his youth at school or a further 20-30 odd years before then, so I'm recalling something second hand from around 1950-1960! There were some errors. Who knows if he got the "correct" poem to start with. You should hear my rendition of the Jabberwocky. I feel quite sorry for historians.

xwolfi 5y ago

But if June 4 for you is only about Victoria Park, then you're starting to enter religion. What matters is we've discussed it all week in every newspaper, certainly a lot more than we would have done before. The crowds were around the park too, the police had to understand why this was necessary, etc. There s not one hong kong resident last Friday who didn't know what had happened on June 4, so maybe let the covid restrictions play out, and make sure we dont start talking more abt HK problems than tiananmen ?