5 ms·

One of the key things that is important when investigating customer complaints in healthcare is that of reproducibility. Any software that we release to a site

One of the key things that is important when investigating customer complaints in healthcare is that of reproducibility. Any software that we release to a site needs to either be archived so we can investigate on the same bits that went out the door or needs to be reproducible bit-for-bit when rebuilt. Being able to freeze a Linux software image and know there is nothing that is constantly trying to update it at the merest appearance of an Internet connection is important so we can do any investigation required of us.

Bilal_io 5y ago
Somewhere, someone has released a medical device running on Linux and they have installed unattended-upgrades or a similar thing xD
- rubicks 5y ago
  And probably by accident, at that. Ubuntu's default apt configuration is rather... chatty.
- Accujack 5y ago
  Or, they have released a medical device with customized Linux software and not shared the source as the license requires because it's "proprietary information".
- pocw 5y ago
  Are you seriously recommending that people disable security updates as though that somehow makes anything better?
  - richardwhiuk 5y ago
    Automatic updates? Yes. If the alternative is a medical device running in an untested configuration, that may well be worse. Instead, updates should be verified by the manufacturer and pushed out on a schedule.
    - Veserv 5y ago
      To elaborate on the parent's point, you should not be running automatic updates because you should be running manually verified and rigorously tested updates before you push a change in a safety-critical component. This is because an update to every device containing that component introduces a correlated failure mode. If the change is bad, you risk harming or killing everybody at the same time. This is in contrast to standard hardware failures modes which are much more likely to be uncorrelated, so the chance of harming everybody at the same time is (1 / FailureRate) ^ N. If a safety-critical system requires updates and can not verified and tested in context before being deployed it is criminally irresponsible to deploy such a system. Both automatic and no updates are similarly inadequate in much the same way that even though cardboard is stronger than tissue paper, neither is an adequate bridge building material for a car-carrying bridge. tl;dr Both no updates and automatic updates are criminally irresponsible. If you can not verify and test updates in context for an appropriate amount of time to verify safety stop before you kill somebody.
  - dTal 5y ago
    "Security updates" are for things doing all kinds of network stuff - exposing ports, running untrusted code inside sandboxes, that sort of thing. Your insulin pump should absolutely not be doing any of those things.
- PascLeRasc 5y ago
  There's a few DIY insulin pumps, and surprisingly one of them recommends a full apt upgrade: https://openaps.readthedocs.io/en/latest/docs/Customize-Iterate/update-your-rig.html https://openaps.readthedocs.io/en/latest/docs/Customize-Iter...
atatatat 5y ago
Reproducibly insecure kernel probably sitting on that network.
- phone8675309 5y ago
  That is the biggest engineering challenge for these products. Having timely, effective, accurate SOUP anomaly reviews are critical to ensure that you have patches for issues in the wild, so you don't end up in a situation where you are running vulnerable software for years and years. This is also why you see a lot of RHEL and SLES in healthcare - commitments for EOL and support timelines are key, and drive a lot of planning for device makers.

Bilal_io 5y ago

Somewhere, someone has released a medical device running on Linux and they have installed unattended-upgrades or a similar thing xD

rubicks 5y ago
And probably by accident, at that. Ubuntu's default apt configuration is rather... chatty.
Accujack 5y ago
Or, they have released a medical device with customized Linux software and not shared the source as the license requires because it's "proprietary information".
pocw 5y ago
Are you seriously recommending that people disable security updates as though that somehow makes anything better?
- richardwhiuk 5y ago
  Automatic updates? Yes. If the alternative is a medical device running in an untested configuration, that may well be worse. Instead, updates should be verified by the manufacturer and pushed out on a schedule.
  - Veserv 5y ago
    To elaborate on the parent's point, you should not be running automatic updates because you should be running manually verified and rigorously tested updates before you push a change in a safety-critical component. This is because an update to every device containing that component introduces a correlated failure mode. If the change is bad, you risk harming or killing everybody at the same time. This is in contrast to standard hardware failures modes which are much more likely to be uncorrelated, so the chance of harming everybody at the same time is (1 / FailureRate) ^ N. If a safety-critical system requires updates and can not verified and tested in context before being deployed it is criminally irresponsible to deploy such a system. Both automatic and no updates are similarly inadequate in much the same way that even though cardboard is stronger than tissue paper, neither is an adequate bridge building material for a car-carrying bridge. tl;dr Both no updates and automatic updates are criminally irresponsible. If you can not verify and test updates in context for an appropriate amount of time to verify safety stop before you kill somebody.
- dTal 5y ago
  "Security updates" are for things doing all kinds of network stuff - exposing ports, running untrusted code inside sandboxes, that sort of thing. Your insulin pump should absolutely not be doing any of those things.
PascLeRasc 5y ago
There's a few DIY insulin pumps, and surprisingly one of them recommends a full apt upgrade: https://openaps.readthedocs.io/en/latest/docs/Customize-Iterate/update-your-rig.html https://openaps.readthedocs.io/en/latest/docs/Customize-Iter...

atatatat 5y ago

Reproducibly insecure kernel probably sitting on that network.

phone8675309 5y ago
That is the biggest engineering challenge for these products. Having timely, effective, accurate SOUP anomaly reviews are critical to ensure that you have patches for issues in the wild, so you don't end up in a situation where you are running vulnerable software for years and years. This is also why you see a lot of RHEL and SLES in healthcare - commitments for EOL and support timelines are key, and drive a lot of planning for device makers.