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Firing on them could be problematic - at least if you actually sink one. I suspect seizing the vessels and keeping them (returning after payment of ruinous fine

Firing on them could be problematic - at least if you actually sink one. I suspect seizing the vessels and keeping them (returning after payment of ruinous fines) would be more effective.

heartbeats 5y ago
Wouldn't that cost them too much in administrative costs? Impounding a vessel is fairly cumbersome, let alone 100 plus crew. Game-theoretically, it seems preferable to sink them without any warning. Consider: the fines would only be paid if they are less than the cost of acquiring a new ship. So if they have to pay fines of 90% of the value, you're still saving them 10% compared to getting a new ship. And if the fines are >100%, they would just ignore it and leave Argentina with the ship. Unless Argentina can turn it into a revenue stream, sinking them unconditionally seems preferable. The Chinese fishing boats don't have anything to give them in a negotiation. All they have to give them is leaving the area, and that is accomplished by sinking the boats too.
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  Sinking the boat would also provide proof that the vessel was invading.
- fencepost 5y ago
  Firing on and sinking a flagged vessel and possibly killing crew (also, how do you then prove that you DIDN'T kill anyone?) is exactly the kind of thing that gets governments openly involved. Seizing a private vessel and fining the owners? That's a civil matter and while there may be backroom discussions everything stays civil. "The military of Country X is firing on and sinking our country's vessels" is much more likely to lead to retaliation. China may not have the navy or willingness to project power across the Pacific, but I guarantee they have the capability if focused to utterly destroy the computing infrastructure of the country - and while enthusiastic private parties may not get involved in civil penalties, "Argentina just declared war on us!" is a hell of a rallying cry. Edit: also keep in mind that even governments are not monolithic entities with a single mind. Those costs are coming out of someone's budget.
  - heartbeats 5y ago
    Will China bother to defend their fishing boats, though? Are they that entrenched in the governmental structure, or are they basically just petty thugs?
CameronNemo 5y ago
Why would you give China a fishing vessel back? Keep the boat, repurpose it for naval purposes, tell the invaders to fuck off. Of course you gotta cut a lot of economic ties before you start poking pooh bear.
- gpm 5y ago
  > returning after payment of ruinous fines This sounds a lot more like "selling back". Which makes a lot of sense if you don't have anything better to do with it... just make sure you're selling it back for enough money to make a good profit.
- fencepost 5y ago
  It's not China that would be (re)purchasing it, it's almost certainly a private entity. Seizing vessels and levying fines are fully within the normal activities and responsibilities of governments, and civil actions plus maybe a few relatively minor criminal charges are much less likely to draw public condemnation and retaliation from the Chinese government.

Firing on them could be problematic - at least if you actually sink one. I suspect seizing the vessels and keeping them (returning after payment of ruinous fines) would be more effective.

heartbeats 5y ago

Wouldn't that cost them too much in administrative costs? Impounding a vessel is fairly cumbersome, let alone 100 plus crew. Game-theoretically, it seems preferable to sink them without any warning. Consider: the fines would only be paid if they are less than the cost of acquiring a new ship. So if they have to pay fines of 90% of the value, you're still saving them 10% compared to getting a new ship. And if the fines are >100%, they would just ignore it and leave Argentina with the ship. Unless Argentina can turn it into a revenue stream, sinking them unconditionally seems preferable. The Chinese fishing boats don't have anything to give them in a negotiation. All they have to give them is leaving the area, and that is accomplished by sinking the boats too.

CameronNemo 5y ago
Sinking the boat would also provide proof that the vessel was invading.
fencepost 5y ago
Firing on and sinking a flagged vessel and possibly killing crew (also, how do you then prove that you DIDN'T kill anyone?) is exactly the kind of thing that gets governments openly involved. Seizing a private vessel and fining the owners? That's a civil matter and while there may be backroom discussions everything stays civil. "The military of Country X is firing on and sinking our country's vessels" is much more likely to lead to retaliation. China may not have the navy or willingness to project power across the Pacific, but I guarantee they have the capability if focused to utterly destroy the computing infrastructure of the country - and while enthusiastic private parties may not get involved in civil penalties, "Argentina just declared war on us!" is a hell of a rallying cry. Edit: also keep in mind that even governments are not monolithic entities with a single mind. Those costs are coming out of someone's budget.
- heartbeats 5y ago
  Will China bother to defend their fishing boats, though? Are they that entrenched in the governmental structure, or are they basically just petty thugs?

CameronNemo 5y ago

Why would you give China a fishing vessel back? Keep the boat, repurpose it for naval purposes, tell the invaders to fuck off. Of course you gotta cut a lot of economic ties before you start poking pooh bear.

gpm 5y ago
> returning after payment of ruinous fines This sounds a lot more like "selling back". Which makes a lot of sense if you don't have anything better to do with it... just make sure you're selling it back for enough money to make a good profit.
fencepost 5y ago
It's not China that would be (re)purchasing it, it's almost certainly a private entity. Seizing vessels and levying fines are fully within the normal activities and responsibilities of governments, and civil actions plus maybe a few relatively minor criminal charges are much less likely to draw public condemnation and retaliation from the Chinese government.