23 ms·

> Alan Kay named the idea, but stole it. So he doesn't get to impose his religion. Bit rich to say he "stole it" when he himself said it's just the foundationa

by slver 5y ago

> Alan Kay named the idea, but stole it. So he doesn't get to impose his religion. Bit rich to say he "stole it" when he himself said it's just the foundational principle around which systems form (living or not). Which already implies he doesn't claim to have invented it.

ncmncm 5y ago
Somebody else invented it. Kristen Nygaard, in particular. He identified the three elements. It is common, when you steal an invention, to insist it is wholly natural, so not really any sort of invention at all. Saying it does not make it true. There was a time before; Kay came after.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Rochus 5y ago
  Kay is said to have coined the term "object-oriented", but his conception of object orientation differs considerably from that of Dahl and Nygaard as well as from all current OO languages. Dahl and Nygaard invented the first object-oriented programming language (Simula 67) but didn't use the term. And yes, active objects reacting to messages (events) passed to them were already part of Simula I (1962). The referenced article - like many others - moreover quotes Kay incompletely; Kay in the sentence next to the one quoted in the article said "the important thing here is that I have many of the same feelings about Smalltalk"; see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKg1hTOQXoY&t=633s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKg1hTOQXoY&t=633s. Smalltalk-76 and 80 (in contrast to Smalltalk-72) implement inheritance and virtual methods as it was done in Simula 67, just like C++ and Java do.
- locallost 5y ago
  He has been pretty clear in giving a lot of credit to the inventors of Simula, but that at the same his ideas derive more from Lisp. He even has a Quora answer where he explains that Lisp is the greatest language because he views it as a big shift in thinking. There is also a well known clear answer of his to the question of what is OOP to him. We ended up with something different in real life, but it's pretty silly to accuse somebody of stealing an idea and giving it a name, when they wanted to do something else. If anything, the name OO was "stolen" to refer to something not originally intended. But even in this case the word steal is too harsh, and your general style leaves a really bad impression.
  - ncmncm 5y ago
    On some people, Alan Kay's territorial claims to others' ideas leave a bad impression. Nobody begrudges him (with Dan Ingalls) Smalltalk, which represents a serious material improvement over Lisp syntax. But it looks like sour grapes to complain about C++, a language designed by a grad student of Kristen Nygaard that found success in industrial applications. Practical reasons for that success—independent programs that run at native-machine speed, using native-machine data representations, and intimately compatible with an existing, successful industrial language—were chosen with careful deliberation, leaving certain Lisp strengths—particularly, function literals—aside, for later. It seemed like the right approach, at the time, and turned out to be. Java could have been the practical Smalltalk, but its designers elected instead to ape superficial details of C++, for no defensible reasons, to Java's detriment. The good ideas in Smalltalk have not had much effect on the world. All of Smalltalk's weaknesses were inherited directly from Lisp, leaving it with no better prospects than Lisp has had, or has, for identically the same reasons. But it turns out the "object orientation", like any other exclusive organizational principle, is an inadequate basis for a language meant for broad use. So, C++ supports OO and other styles, and even Java has begun to branch out. Subsequent development of C++ has drawn mainly upon ML, fleshing out support for other organizational styles that Smalltalk and Lisp never attempted. And, it got lambdas, after all.
    - locallost 5y ago
      I've seen a couple of his talks and read some of his comments here and elsewhere. I've never seen any territorial claims, quite the opposite. Can you give me an example?
      - gnufx 5y ago
        Indeed. He's said that Sutherland invented OOP (along with the other things Sutherland "didn't know was difficult"). Like most people, I guess, I found out about Sketchpad from Kay.
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        Kay has promoted many different definitions of "object-oriented", over the years, and many disjoint variations on Smalltalk's early history. It is probably best to stick to the very oldest interviews if you care to learn the real history.

by slver 5y ago

ncmncm 5y ago

Somebody else invented it. Kristen Nygaard, in particular. He identified the three elements. It is common, when you steal an invention, to insist it is wholly natural, so not really any sort of invention at all. Saying it does not make it true. There was a time before; Kay came after.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Rochus 5y ago
Kay is said to have coined the term "object-oriented", but his conception of object orientation differs considerably from that of Dahl and Nygaard as well as from all current OO languages. Dahl and Nygaard invented the first object-oriented programming language (Simula 67) but didn't use the term. And yes, active objects reacting to messages (events) passed to them were already part of Simula I (1962). The referenced article - like many others - moreover quotes Kay incompletely; Kay in the sentence next to the one quoted in the article said "the important thing here is that I have many of the same feelings about Smalltalk"; see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKg1hTOQXoY&t=633s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKg1hTOQXoY&t=633s. Smalltalk-76 and 80 (in contrast to Smalltalk-72) implement inheritance and virtual methods as it was done in Simula 67, just like C++ and Java do.
locallost 5y ago
He has been pretty clear in giving a lot of credit to the inventors of Simula, but that at the same his ideas derive more from Lisp. He even has a Quora answer where he explains that Lisp is the greatest language because he views it as a big shift in thinking. There is also a well known clear answer of his to the question of what is OOP to him. We ended up with something different in real life, but it's pretty silly to accuse somebody of stealing an idea and giving it a name, when they wanted to do something else. If anything, the name OO was "stolen" to refer to something not originally intended. But even in this case the word steal is too harsh, and your general style leaves a really bad impression.
- ncmncm 5y ago
  On some people, Alan Kay's territorial claims to others' ideas leave a bad impression. Nobody begrudges him (with Dan Ingalls) Smalltalk, which represents a serious material improvement over Lisp syntax. But it looks like sour grapes to complain about C++, a language designed by a grad student of Kristen Nygaard that found success in industrial applications. Practical reasons for that success—independent programs that run at native-machine speed, using native-machine data representations, and intimately compatible with an existing, successful industrial language—were chosen with careful deliberation, leaving certain Lisp strengths—particularly, function literals—aside, for later. It seemed like the right approach, at the time, and turned out to be. Java could have been the practical Smalltalk, but its designers elected instead to ape superficial details of C++, for no defensible reasons, to Java's detriment. The good ideas in Smalltalk have not had much effect on the world. All of Smalltalk's weaknesses were inherited directly from Lisp, leaving it with no better prospects than Lisp has had, or has, for identically the same reasons. But it turns out the "object orientation", like any other exclusive organizational principle, is an inadequate basis for a language meant for broad use. So, C++ supports OO and other styles, and even Java has begun to branch out. Subsequent development of C++ has drawn mainly upon ML, fleshing out support for other organizational styles that Smalltalk and Lisp never attempted. And, it got lambdas, after all.
  - locallost 5y ago
    I've seen a couple of his talks and read some of his comments here and elsewhere. I've never seen any territorial claims, quite the opposite. Can you give me an example?
    - gnufx 5y ago
      Indeed. He's said that Sutherland invented OOP (along with the other things Sutherland "didn't know was difficult"). Like most people, I guess, I found out about Sketchpad from Kay.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      Kay has promoted many different definitions of "object-oriented", over the years, and many disjoint variations on Smalltalk's early history. It is probably best to stick to the very oldest interviews if you care to learn the real history.