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And those 80 people will not have a problem finding a remote job. Seems like everything will work out in the end. Remote workers will find remote jobs.

tolbish 5y ago
> Seems like everything will work out in the end. Except for those of us who want to work remotely but don't want to be the squeaky wheel.
- wernercd 5y ago
  If you don't stand up for what you want, why is that anyone's fault but yours? I get not wanting to be the squeaky wheel... but in the end, it's your loss. And you can voice your opinion and work for what you want without being a "sqeaky wheel" - which I take to have a negative connotation as a "complainy pants".
  - tolbish 5y ago
    There are many ways to fight this battle other than writing a letter to Tim Cook.
    - wernercd 5y ago
      Absolutely. Sometimes you have to "bring out the big guns" and send a letter to the CEO... sometimes you just have to say "I want to continue to work remotely as has been proven to make me more productive." and be ready to find another job if the company doesn't meet your needs any more. Work is a two way street and Apple employees can probably find work elsewhere easily enough. That's on a personal level though... this happens to be on a "union" level ("employee group"? not sure if that's a union per-se but it's more than just a single person). I think a union (or whatever this is) has the obligation to make these sorts of moves - so there is a difference there. I skimmed the article before and just reread it - 80 people wrote the letter and 2800 joined a slack channel for it - so this does go beyond individuals into a more "our voices will be heard" direction. Still need to stand up to be heard and you can do so without being a squeaky wheel :)
      - tolbish 5y ago
        Did I say that making a stand or bringing out the big guns is bad? No. I said that this specific instance (writing a letter to Tim Cook), him saying "No", and remote advocates having to find work elsewhere means that everything does not in fact work out for everyone. Especially for those of us who are not interested in leaving the company.
        wernercd 5y ago
        I didn't say a letter would make everything work out for everyone... I said you have to speak up to have the opportunity - and speaking up can be done without being a "sqeaky wheel" (AKA: complainy pants). Personally, I don't think they'll find a way to make EVERYONE happy. Someone isn't going to get the option they want (100% wfh? work at a remote location because they don't like the main office? etc). There's no way they can. BUT The group speaking up CAN put more pressure to have options that will make more people happy. If hundreds of employees say "Look at the numbers and look at news stories talking about 40%+ of employees willing to leave a job without WFH and etc"... If I say "I'm not open to 100% in the office" and Tim says no? If 80 say it... if 2800 say it... Tim can ignore 1 person. Can he ignore 80? 200? 2000? If you aren't interested in leaving but you want better options then you have two things at odds with each other. You may be interested in staying but if staying means you work in a office you hate or have a commute you hate or whatever... then that's on YOU to decide what's more important - a job at apple or a job with WFH. At the end of the conversation... the letter tells Tim (or whatever CEO gets a similar letter with more than a couple signatures) that he risks losing a sizable number of employees. That letter isn't from one person... it's from a large group of people. It's up to Tim to decide if the risk of losing talent is worth sticking to the currently given options. It's up to you and me if it's worth the lack of option you want to stay at the current job. Like i said... I'd probably look for work if asked to be in the office 5 days a week due to my commute. I don't blame them for asking and given some thought I don't think a letter from a "union" or "employee group" in this circumstance is bad.
        tolbish 5y ago
        We'll have to agree to disagree then. The overall sentiment in big tech is still very much "If you leave your cushy FAAMG job there are hundreds of people eager to replace you, and the employer is well aware of this when announcing returning to work." Although I would love to know if you're also doing work in union/labor organization either at your employer or otherwise.

tolbish 5y ago

> Seems like everything will work out in the end. Except for those of us who want to work remotely but don't want to be the squeaky wheel.

wernercd 5y ago
If you don't stand up for what you want, why is that anyone's fault but yours? I get not wanting to be the squeaky wheel... but in the end, it's your loss. And you can voice your opinion and work for what you want without being a "sqeaky wheel" - which I take to have a negative connotation as a "complainy pants".
- tolbish 5y ago
  There are many ways to fight this battle other than writing a letter to Tim Cook.
  - wernercd 5y ago
    Absolutely. Sometimes you have to "bring out the big guns" and send a letter to the CEO... sometimes you just have to say "I want to continue to work remotely as has been proven to make me more productive." and be ready to find another job if the company doesn't meet your needs any more. Work is a two way street and Apple employees can probably find work elsewhere easily enough. That's on a personal level though... this happens to be on a "union" level ("employee group"? not sure if that's a union per-se but it's more than just a single person). I think a union (or whatever this is) has the obligation to make these sorts of moves - so there is a difference there. I skimmed the article before and just reread it - 80 people wrote the letter and 2800 joined a slack channel for it - so this does go beyond individuals into a more "our voices will be heard" direction. Still need to stand up to be heard and you can do so without being a squeaky wheel :)
    - tolbish 5y ago
      Did I say that making a stand or bringing out the big guns is bad? No. I said that this specific instance (writing a letter to Tim Cook), him saying "No", and remote advocates having to find work elsewhere means that everything does not in fact work out for everyone. Especially for those of us who are not interested in leaving the company.
      - wernercd 5y ago
        I didn't say a letter would make everything work out for everyone... I said you have to speak up to have the opportunity - and speaking up can be done without being a "sqeaky wheel" (AKA: complainy pants). Personally, I don't think they'll find a way to make EVERYONE happy. Someone isn't going to get the option they want (100% wfh? work at a remote location because they don't like the main office? etc). There's no way they can. BUT The group speaking up CAN put more pressure to have options that will make more people happy. If hundreds of employees say "Look at the numbers and look at news stories talking about 40%+ of employees willing to leave a job without WFH and etc"... If I say "I'm not open to 100% in the office" and Tim says no? If 80 say it... if 2800 say it... Tim can ignore 1 person. Can he ignore 80? 200? 2000? If you aren't interested in leaving but you want better options then you have two things at odds with each other. You may be interested in staying but if staying means you work in a office you hate or have a commute you hate or whatever... then that's on YOU to decide what's more important - a job at apple or a job with WFH. At the end of the conversation... the letter tells Tim (or whatever CEO gets a similar letter with more than a couple signatures) that he risks losing a sizable number of employees. That letter isn't from one person... it's from a large group of people. It's up to Tim to decide if the risk of losing talent is worth sticking to the currently given options. It's up to you and me if it's worth the lack of option you want to stay at the current job. Like i said... I'd probably look for work if asked to be in the office 5 days a week due to my commute. I don't blame them for asking and given some thought I don't think a letter from a "union" or "employee group" in this circumstance is bad.
        tolbish 5y ago
        We'll have to agree to disagree then. The overall sentiment in big tech is still very much "If you leave your cushy FAAMG job there are hundreds of people eager to replace you, and the employer is well aware of this when announcing returning to work." Although I would love to know if you're also doing work in union/labor organization either at your employer or otherwise.