6 ms·

Cicero used humor to charm audiences–and humiliate opponents

91 points by diodorus 5y ago

cblconfederate 5y ago
He should be cancelled
SiVal 5y ago
This past weekend was to have been the annual vigil in the park in Hong Kong where thousands come out every year on June 4 in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square. This year, the park was empty. Not just a few, but empty. Those in power made statements in the Mainland "media", whose job is to persuade people to support those in power, about how misinformation needed to be eliminated and the terrorists and criminal elements behind it stopped for the sake of all the good people of China. Of course in the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. You may have humor and charm, you may be well-behaved and your claims may be correct, but if you are an impediment to the agendas of those in power, they will silence you in whatever ways they can unless others in society restrain them. It is the lesson of history that Noam Chomsky shouted from the rooftops: when you use your power to silence speech you don't like, you are corrupt, regardless of how you try to disguise it, and the more power you have to do it, the more corrupt, until absolute power corrupts absolutely or society refuses to allow it and restrains you.
- User23 5y ago
  > Of course in the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. The conflict between Cicero and Mark Antony is a splendid case study of influence versus power and how that conflict ends when power chooses to play its hand.
  - hungryforcodes 5y ago
    Mark Anthony may not have ultimately been successful (he was though), in which case Cicero may have lasted a bit longer. He was already 63 when he was executed, so it's not like he lived a short life for the age he lived in.
- MR4D 5y ago
  > the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. This is a spin on the fact that he was a participant in the murder of Caesar. Cicero was trying to take back power that had been lost to a very popular Leader by participating in the murder of said leader.[0] The killers and conspirators involved were all hunted down and killed. [0] - for those not up on Roman institutions, Dictator had a different role than we would ascribe today, albeit with many similarities.
  - coffexx 5y ago
    The historical consensus seems to be that Cicero, while probably amenable to the plot, was a witness only, and not involved with the conspirators until after the deed was done.
  - philipov 5y ago
    Cicero wasn't murdered for any connection with the assassination of Caesar. He was murdered because Marc Anthony personally hated him for having denounced Anthony in a series of speeches known as the Philippics. When Octavian and Anthony were setting up the Second Triumvirate, Cicero's life was one of Anthony's demands.
    - lr4444lr 5y ago
      He openly praised at least the main conspirator, Cassius, in his letters: http://attalus.org/translate/cassius.html#12.1 http://attalus.org/translate/cassius.html#12.1 He loved the Roman Republic and it's senatorial grandeur, and hated Caesar for his illegal arrogation of power.
    - edmundsauto 5y ago
      Before we laud him as a saint, wasn't Cicero the guy who felt the plebian/patrician divide was just and right? My (poor) memory is that he was across the aisle from Caesar under the auspices of "no commoners" as well as "no dictators".
      - ysavir 5y ago
- gerdesj 5y ago
  "in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square." That event is still remembered across the world. Recently the Register noted that "Tank man" vanished for a while from certain search engines but has made some re-appearances again. It may also surprise you to learn that "Cicero sic in omnibus, et Brutus aderat" (Big C puked in the bus and Brutus had a rat) I understand where you are coming from and I think the notion of: "power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely" is a very, very old notion.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > "Cicero sic in omnibus, et Brutus aderat" This would appear to mean "Cicero [was] this way in everything, and Brutus was there", which comes across as two clauses with absolutely no connection between them. On the other hand, it is comprehensible Latin, unlike "semper ubi sub ubi". Is it a quote from a real source, or was it composed purely for the sake of sounding like English when read in the British standard Latin pronunciation? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciat... )
    - jonquark 5y ago
      See the section about "Down with skool" here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Latin
      - thaumasiotes 5y ago
        Hm. That original poem is much better English and, of course, completely impossible Latin. I find it interesting that what gerdesj remembered were two lines (in the wrong order) that didn't go together in the English, but which were also the only two lines that made sense as Latin.
        gerdesj 5y ago
        That's what happens after 40 years, I'm afraid: You get your doggerel out of order and accidentally correct it. I recall those lines that my Latin teacher prefaced with something like "I can't remember the whole thing but ...". I was 10 in 1980 and he was quoting probably from his youth at school or a further 20-30 odd years before then, so I'm recalling something second hand from around 1950-1960! There were some errors. Who knows if he got the "correct" poem to start with. You should hear my rendition of the Jabberwocky. I feel quite sorry for historians.
- xwolfi 5y ago
  But if June 4 for you is only about Victoria Park, then you're starting to enter religion. What matters is we've discussed it all week in every newspaper, certainly a lot more than we would have done before. The crowds were around the park too, the police had to understand why this was necessary, etc. There s not one hong kong resident last Friday who didn't know what had happened on June 4, so maybe let the covid restrictions play out, and make sure we dont start talking more abt HK problems than tiananmen ?
kthxb 5y ago
I recommend Robert Harris' Cicero novels. They are not historical, but very entertaining.
prox 5y ago
Behind a paywall :/
- morebortplates 5y ago
  https://archive.is/vO5vt https://archive.is/vO5vt
grouphugs 5y ago
if only humour and charm stopped nazis from funding genocide, slavery, and war. hitler wasn't stopped because the third reich realized in their heart of hearts and mind of minds that fascism is wrong, it was the bullets and the bombs
gerdesj 5y ago
You know you are in the hands of a master when you read this: In a loose, one is inclined to say a swinging, translation, Mr. Fontaine makes use of such words as “zingers,” “badmouthing,” “shtick” and “chutzpah.” (Bet you didn’t know the Romans knew Yiddish.) He also employs such contemporary phrases as “virtue-signaling,” “metrosexual” and “politically incorrect.” To enjoy his translation, one must smother the pedant in oneself and recall that there is no such thing as the perfect translation; only more or less inaccurate ones. I have myself long owed a debt of hearty laughter to a French translator who rendered “Englishmen always love an underdog” as “Les Anglais aiment toujours le ventre du chien,” or Englishmen love the belly of the dog.
stanrivers 5y ago
Cicero is an odd character to me - and I think I like him, because he is so very human. He is smart, witty, philosophical and could have had a long life, but vanity and a need to feel important caused him to make mistakes time and time again. He would even go against his own philosophies because of his need for status. But, great thinker and tried his best despite failings. I kind of think that is a good role model - try to be better, know you are going to screw up, and keep on trying. Also - he pokes young people in the eye in a book and I always thought it was funny in a philosophical way: "And yet is there anyone so foolish, even though he is young, as to feel absolutely sure that he will be alive when evening comes? Nay, even youth, much more than old age, is subject to the accident of death; the young fall sick more easily, their sufferings are more intense, and they are cured with greater difficulty. Therefore, few arrive at old age... They say, also, that the old man has nothing even to hope for. Yet he is in better case than the young man, since what the latter merely hopes for, the former has already attained; the one wishes to live long, the other has lived long." Source: https://newsletter.butwhatfor.com/p/takeaway-tuesday-on-old-age https://newsletter.butwhatfor.com/p/takeaway-tuesday-on-old-...
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
Anthony Evereritt wrote my favourite Cicero biography [1]. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Cicero-Anthony-Everitt/dp/1402576536 https://www.amazon.com/Cicero-Anthony-Everitt/dp/1402576536
anonytrary 5y ago
> I have myself long owed a debt of hearty laughter to a French translator who rendered “Englishmen always love an underdog” as “Les Anglais aiment toujours le ventre du chien,” or Englishmen love the belly of the dog. I don't find this weird. There are plenty of English phrases that have seemingly literal translations in other languages (when you translate back to English), and vice-versa. For example in Hindi (and at least a few dialects), there's a phrase that translates to "you're eating my head". This phrase does not literally mean that, it means: "you're pushing my buttons" or "you're driving me crazy". But "you're pushing my buttons" and "you're driving me crazy" are both English phrases that also should not be taken literally. Both the non-literal Hindi and English phrases are understood to mean "you're annoying me, but I love you, so I'm using this phrase instead of actually getting mad at you".
sam_goody 5y ago
The current politician who had a mastery of humor was Ronald Regan (formerly Bozo the clown). It was used to great effect - mostly to villianize Russia, but as needed against all of his opponents. When he was criticized for his age, he responded "I won't use my opponent's lack of experience against him" gaining a laugh and owning the conversation (worth watching). It also made him more approachable and liked by the common man (and hated by the media, but whatever...) "I've instructed my aids that in case of emergency they should wake me in all circumstances; even in a cabinet meeting!"
- permo-w 5y ago
  Reagan often used humour in the form of jokes that were clearly laid out in a very traditional way: joke set-up, unexpected twist His humour took a very defined and clever format. However, he’s absolutely not the recent politician to use humour. While Trump’s humour is less clearly defined than Reagan’s, he still uses it to great effect. The same for Boris Johnson, or Putin, and Obama too. Especially Trump though. Trump plays his rallies like a stand-up gig
  - sam_goody 5y ago
    While I agree, I am afraid to comment positively about anything Trump does (especially as he sells more enthusiasm and less humor). I mentioned once to some friends how much I enjoyed watching part of a rally, and was stonewalled.
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  >The current politician who had a mastery of humor was Ronald Regan (formerly Bozo the clown). I don't believe Reagan was ever Bozo, perhaps you are thinking of his starring role in Bedtime For Bonzo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedtime_for_Bonzo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedtime_for_Bonzo in which he also did not play Bonzo.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    And further: Bonzo wasn't a clown, but a chimpanzee. (The confusion between "Bonzo" and "Bozo", as well as between chimp and clown, appears to be widespread, FWIW. Also between "Reagan" and "Regan".)

91 points by diodorus 5y ago

He should be cancelled

This past weekend was to have been the annual vigil in the park in Hong Kong where thousands come out every year on June 4 in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square. This year, the park was empty. Not just a few, but empty. Those in power made statements in the Mainland "media", whose job is to persuade people to support those in power, about how misinformation needed to be eliminated and the terrorists and criminal elements behind it stopped for the sake of all the good people of China. Of course in the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. You may have humor and charm, you may be well-behaved and your claims may be correct, but if you are an impediment to the agendas of those in power, they will silence you in whatever ways they can unless others in society restrain them. It is the lesson of history that Noam Chomsky shouted from the rooftops: when you use your power to silence speech you don't like, you are corrupt, regardless of how you try to disguise it, and the more power you have to do it, the more corrupt, until absolute power corrupts absolutely or society refuses to allow it and restrains you.

User23 5y ago
> Of course in the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. The conflict between Cicero and Mark Antony is a splendid case study of influence versus power and how that conflict ends when power chooses to play its hand.
- hungryforcodes 5y ago
  Mark Anthony may not have ultimately been successful (he was though), in which case Cicero may have lasted a bit longer. He was already 63 when he was executed, so it's not like he lived a short life for the age he lived in.
MR4D 5y ago
> the end Cicero was silenced by those who were taking power. This is a spin on the fact that he was a participant in the murder of Caesar. Cicero was trying to take back power that had been lost to a very popular Leader by participating in the murder of said leader.[0] The killers and conspirators involved were all hunted down and killed. [0] - for those not up on Roman institutions, Dictator had a different role than we would ascribe today, albeit with many similarities.
- coffexx 5y ago
  The historical consensus seems to be that Cicero, while probably amenable to the plot, was a witness only, and not involved with the conspirators until after the deed was done.
- philipov 5y ago
  Cicero wasn't murdered for any connection with the assassination of Caesar. He was murdered because Marc Anthony personally hated him for having denounced Anthony in a series of speeches known as the Philippics. When Octavian and Anthony were setting up the Second Triumvirate, Cicero's life was one of Anthony's demands.
  - lr4444lr 5y ago
    He openly praised at least the main conspirator, Cassius, in his letters: http://attalus.org/translate/cassius.html#12.1 http://attalus.org/translate/cassius.html#12.1 He loved the Roman Republic and it's senatorial grandeur, and hated Caesar for his illegal arrogation of power.
  - edmundsauto 5y ago
    Before we laud him as a saint, wasn't Cicero the guy who felt the plebian/patrician divide was just and right? My (poor) memory is that he was across the aisle from Caesar under the auspices of "no commoners" as well as "no dictators".
    - ysavir 5y ago
gerdesj 5y ago
"in remembrance of what really happened in Tiananmen Square." That event is still remembered across the world. Recently the Register noted that "Tank man" vanished for a while from certain search engines but has made some re-appearances again. It may also surprise you to learn that "Cicero sic in omnibus, et Brutus aderat" (Big C puked in the bus and Brutus had a rat) I understand where you are coming from and I think the notion of: "power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely" is a very, very old notion.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > "Cicero sic in omnibus, et Brutus aderat" This would appear to mean "Cicero [was] this way in everything, and Brutus was there", which comes across as two clauses with absolutely no connection between them. On the other hand, it is comprehensible Latin, unlike "semper ubi sub ubi". Is it a quote from a real source, or was it composed purely for the sake of sounding like English when read in the British standard Latin pronunciation? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciation_of_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_English_pronunciat... )
  - jonquark 5y ago
    See the section about "Down with skool" here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Latin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Latin
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      Hm. That original poem is much better English and, of course, completely impossible Latin. I find it interesting that what gerdesj remembered were two lines (in the wrong order) that didn't go together in the English, but which were also the only two lines that made sense as Latin.
      - gerdesj 5y ago
        That's what happens after 40 years, I'm afraid: You get your doggerel out of order and accidentally correct it. I recall those lines that my Latin teacher prefaced with something like "I can't remember the whole thing but ...". I was 10 in 1980 and he was quoting probably from his youth at school or a further 20-30 odd years before then, so I'm recalling something second hand from around 1950-1960! There were some errors. Who knows if he got the "correct" poem to start with. You should hear my rendition of the Jabberwocky. I feel quite sorry for historians.
xwolfi 5y ago
But if June 4 for you is only about Victoria Park, then you're starting to enter religion. What matters is we've discussed it all week in every newspaper, certainly a lot more than we would have done before. The crowds were around the park too, the police had to understand why this was necessary, etc. There s not one hong kong resident last Friday who didn't know what had happened on June 4, so maybe let the covid restrictions play out, and make sure we dont start talking more abt HK problems than tiananmen ?

kthxb 5y ago

I recommend Robert Harris' Cicero novels. They are not historical, but very entertaining.

prox 5y ago

Behind a paywall :/

morebortplates 5y ago
https://archive.is/vO5vt https://archive.is/vO5vt

grouphugs 5y ago

if only humour and charm stopped nazis from funding genocide, slavery, and war. hitler wasn't stopped because the third reich realized in their heart of hearts and mind of minds that fascism is wrong, it was the bullets and the bombs

gerdesj 5y ago

You know you are in the hands of a master when you read this: In a loose, one is inclined to say a swinging, translation, Mr. Fontaine makes use of such words as “zingers,” “badmouthing,” “shtick” and “chutzpah.” (Bet you didn’t know the Romans knew Yiddish.) He also employs such contemporary phrases as “virtue-signaling,” “metrosexual” and “politically incorrect.” To enjoy his translation, one must smother the pedant in oneself and recall that there is no such thing as the perfect translation; only more or less inaccurate ones. I have myself long owed a debt of hearty laughter to a French translator who rendered “Englishmen always love an underdog” as “Les Anglais aiment toujours le ventre du chien,” or Englishmen love the belly of the dog.

stanrivers 5y ago

Cicero is an odd character to me - and I think I like him, because he is so very human. He is smart, witty, philosophical and could have had a long life, but vanity and a need to feel important caused him to make mistakes time and time again. He would even go against his own philosophies because of his need for status. But, great thinker and tried his best despite failings. I kind of think that is a good role model - try to be better, know you are going to screw up, and keep on trying. Also - he pokes young people in the eye in a book and I always thought it was funny in a philosophical way: "And yet is there anyone so foolish, even though he is young, as to feel absolutely sure that he will be alive when evening comes? Nay, even youth, much more than old age, is subject to the accident of death; the young fall sick more easily, their sufferings are more intense, and they are cured with greater difficulty. Therefore, few arrive at old age... They say, also, that the old man has nothing even to hope for. Yet he is in better case than the young man, since what the latter merely hopes for, the former has already attained; the one wishes to live long, the other has lived long." Source: https://newsletter.butwhatfor.com/p/takeaway-tuesday-on-old-age https://newsletter.butwhatfor.com/p/takeaway-tuesday-on-old-...

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

Anthony Evereritt wrote my favourite Cicero biography [1]. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Cicero-Anthony-Everitt/dp/1402576536 https://www.amazon.com/Cicero-Anthony-Everitt/dp/1402576536

anonytrary 5y ago

> I have myself long owed a debt of hearty laughter to a French translator who rendered “Englishmen always love an underdog” as “Les Anglais aiment toujours le ventre du chien,” or Englishmen love the belly of the dog. I don't find this weird. There are plenty of English phrases that have seemingly literal translations in other languages (when you translate back to English), and vice-versa. For example in Hindi (and at least a few dialects), there's a phrase that translates to "you're eating my head". This phrase does not literally mean that, it means: "you're pushing my buttons" or "you're driving me crazy". But "you're pushing my buttons" and "you're driving me crazy" are both English phrases that also should not be taken literally. Both the non-literal Hindi and English phrases are understood to mean "you're annoying me, but I love you, so I'm using this phrase instead of actually getting mad at you".

sam_goody 5y ago

The current politician who had a mastery of humor was Ronald Regan (formerly Bozo the clown). It was used to great effect - mostly to villianize Russia, but as needed against all of his opponents. When he was criticized for his age, he responded "I won't use my opponent's lack of experience against him" gaining a laugh and owning the conversation (worth watching). It also made him more approachable and liked by the common man (and hated by the media, but whatever...) "I've instructed my aids that in case of emergency they should wake me in all circumstances; even in a cabinet meeting!"

permo-w 5y ago
Reagan often used humour in the form of jokes that were clearly laid out in a very traditional way: joke set-up, unexpected twist His humour took a very defined and clever format. However, he’s absolutely not the recent politician to use humour. While Trump’s humour is less clearly defined than Reagan’s, he still uses it to great effect. The same for Boris Johnson, or Putin, and Obama too. Especially Trump though. Trump plays his rallies like a stand-up gig
- sam_goody 5y ago
  While I agree, I am afraid to comment positively about anything Trump does (especially as he sells more enthusiasm and less humor). I mentioned once to some friends how much I enjoyed watching part of a rally, and was stonewalled.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
>The current politician who had a mastery of humor was Ronald Regan (formerly Bozo the clown). I don't believe Reagan was ever Bozo, perhaps you are thinking of his starring role in Bedtime For Bonzo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedtime_for_Bonzo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedtime_for_Bonzo in which he also did not play Bonzo.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  And further: Bonzo wasn't a clown, but a chimpanzee. (The confusion between "Bonzo" and "Bozo", as well as between chimp and clown, appears to be widespread, FWIW. Also between "Reagan" and "Regan".)