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The Chinese government isn't exactly arresting Taiwanese for walking alone with a yellow umbrella or alone holding a candle. No diabolical authoritarian governm

by gscott 5y ago

The Chinese government isn't exactly arresting Taiwanese for walking alone with a yellow umbrella or alone holding a candle. No diabolical authoritarian government there to take away their free will, yet.

xwolfi 5y ago
They re not either in Hong Kong. I do all that and am not arrested. The arrests are for slogans or song that sound independentist. An insecure phase other countries went through and usually grow out of with time.
- dillondoyle 5y ago
  What's the insecure phase to grow out of? Like CCP is insecure, as in like the connotation of a Napoleon complex driving a giant pickup truck? What does growing out of this phase mean to you?
bostonsre 5y ago
They are sending fighter jet squadrons into their airspace pretty much constantly though. I don't see any likely scenario where Taiwan maintains sovereignty in the next ten to twenty years. They will either be assimilated as a useful puppet or there will be military action to bring Taiwan in line. China has been flexing their military might for a while now and they can't afford to look weak by backing down or letting Taiwan build up their defenses further.
- cinquemb 5y ago
  > … or there will be military action to bring Taiwan in line. I don't see how this won't cause further escalation… perhaps just one ohio class authorized to target up to 288 civilian and military installations needed to "bring Taiwan in line"…
  - bostonsre 5y ago
    What other escalation would there be if the ccp invades and installs a new government or just makes it part of China? I think that would be game over for Taiwan and the only blowback on China would be sanctions. It would go over exactly like what happened with Russia in the Ukraine. Everyone would be pissed at China but no one would want to start ww3.
    - cinquemb 5y ago
      Perhaps an ohio class sub can be leased (crew and all) to the ROC and under direct command of the civilian leadership… Of course none of this has to be made public with the proper FISA authorizations… In such a scenario the PRC is the one starting ww3, but perhaps not if the ROC goes public and states that its simply defending itself… if NK can get away with it, I don't see why any other nation state cannot pursue the same strategy… PRC would know something like this is in place when the ROC no longer decides to scramble the fighters as much :P
    - hollerith 5y ago
      The US Navy could impose a blockade. I don't like that option, but the US does have options other than sanctions. It could also counterinvade Taiwan.
      - bostonsre 5y ago
        A naval blockade only or air and sea? And yes, invading Taiwan after China took over is an option, but I don't see how it's possible that option would be chosen. Engaging another super power like China is extremely dangerous and would lead to a massive conflict. Our carrier strike groups are mighty, but they would be overwhelmed by anti ship missiles very quickly. If the United States were serious about defending Taiwan in a conflict, we would have troops in Taiwan as a deterrent like we do with other countries in the region.
        hollerith 5y ago
        China currently gets most of its iron ore from Australia. It is completely unworkable to transport that by air as are many other things. (If China had to for example transport petroleum from the Persian Gulf by air, my guess is that it would cost more petroleum to fuel the operation than the operation would move. ISTR that most of the cargo by weight transiting the oceans is petroleum.) A naval blockade would harm China more than conquering Taiwan would help China.
- xtian 5y ago
  Here’s a map that shows what Taiwan considers its airspace for anyone who’s curious: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/JADIZ_and_CADIZ_and_KADIZ_in_East_China_Sea.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/JADIZ_an...
  - khuey 5y ago
    It's often misreported this way in the popular press but your ADIZ is not "your airspace", and establishing an ADIZ is not a claim of sovereignty.
    - xtian 5y ago
      Right, I was just staying consistent with how the person I responded to was using the term.
  - bostonsre 5y ago
    Is there a legend for that map? I'm not sure if I'm interpreting it correctly or not.. I see the box over Taiwan, but that extends over into the mainland. Do they really scramble jets in cases where Chinese fighters don't even go over the water? Or is that line that goes over the water the start of what they consider to be their airspace?
    - xtian 5y ago
      I don't think they scramble jets on Taiwan, no. But every time a news report comes out about Chinese jets representing escalating aggression towards Taiwan, that is the boundary they are actually talking about.

by gscott 5y ago

xwolfi 5y ago

They re not either in Hong Kong. I do all that and am not arrested. The arrests are for slogans or song that sound independentist. An insecure phase other countries went through and usually grow out of with time.

dillondoyle 5y ago
What's the insecure phase to grow out of? Like CCP is insecure, as in like the connotation of a Napoleon complex driving a giant pickup truck? What does growing out of this phase mean to you?

bostonsre 5y ago

They are sending fighter jet squadrons into their airspace pretty much constantly though. I don't see any likely scenario where Taiwan maintains sovereignty in the next ten to twenty years. They will either be assimilated as a useful puppet or there will be military action to bring Taiwan in line. China has been flexing their military might for a while now and they can't afford to look weak by backing down or letting Taiwan build up their defenses further.

cinquemb 5y ago
> … or there will be military action to bring Taiwan in line. I don't see how this won't cause further escalation… perhaps just one ohio class authorized to target up to 288 civilian and military installations needed to "bring Taiwan in line"…
- bostonsre 5y ago
  What other escalation would there be if the ccp invades and installs a new government or just makes it part of China? I think that would be game over for Taiwan and the only blowback on China would be sanctions. It would go over exactly like what happened with Russia in the Ukraine. Everyone would be pissed at China but no one would want to start ww3.
  - cinquemb 5y ago
    Perhaps an ohio class sub can be leased (crew and all) to the ROC and under direct command of the civilian leadership… Of course none of this has to be made public with the proper FISA authorizations… In such a scenario the PRC is the one starting ww3, but perhaps not if the ROC goes public and states that its simply defending itself… if NK can get away with it, I don't see why any other nation state cannot pursue the same strategy… PRC would know something like this is in place when the ROC no longer decides to scramble the fighters as much :P
  - hollerith 5y ago
    The US Navy could impose a blockade. I don't like that option, but the US does have options other than sanctions. It could also counterinvade Taiwan.
    - bostonsre 5y ago
      A naval blockade only or air and sea? And yes, invading Taiwan after China took over is an option, but I don't see how it's possible that option would be chosen. Engaging another super power like China is extremely dangerous and would lead to a massive conflict. Our carrier strike groups are mighty, but they would be overwhelmed by anti ship missiles very quickly. If the United States were serious about defending Taiwan in a conflict, we would have troops in Taiwan as a deterrent like we do with other countries in the region.
      - hollerith 5y ago
        China currently gets most of its iron ore from Australia. It is completely unworkable to transport that by air as are many other things. (If China had to for example transport petroleum from the Persian Gulf by air, my guess is that it would cost more petroleum to fuel the operation than the operation would move. ISTR that most of the cargo by weight transiting the oceans is petroleum.) A naval blockade would harm China more than conquering Taiwan would help China.
xtian 5y ago
Here’s a map that shows what Taiwan considers its airspace for anyone who’s curious: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/JADIZ_and_CADIZ_and_KADIZ_in_East_China_Sea.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/JADIZ_an...
- khuey 5y ago
  It's often misreported this way in the popular press but your ADIZ is not "your airspace", and establishing an ADIZ is not a claim of sovereignty.
  - xtian 5y ago
    Right, I was just staying consistent with how the person I responded to was using the term.
- bostonsre 5y ago
  Is there a legend for that map? I'm not sure if I'm interpreting it correctly or not.. I see the box over Taiwan, but that extends over into the mainland. Do they really scramble jets in cases where Chinese fighters don't even go over the water? Or is that line that goes over the water the start of what they consider to be their airspace?
  - xtian 5y ago
    I don't think they scramble jets on Taiwan, no. But every time a news report comes out about Chinese jets representing escalating aggression towards Taiwan, that is the boundary they are actually talking about.