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I don’t think I suggested that I get to decide if a wage is livable. And I guess I find it odd that you’ve, apparently, decided that all immigrants have lower

by everly 5y ago

I don’t think I suggested that I get to decide if a wage is livable. And I guess I find it odd that you’ve, apparently, decided that all immigrants have lower expectations and standards of living. I take issue with the notion that immigrants inherently deserve less because of some perceived expectation of what is good enough for them based on where they came from.

Aunche 5y ago
> I don’t think I suggested that I get to decide if a wage is livable. You are if you're implying that wages are somehow unlivable today. > And I guess I find it odd that you’ve, apparently, decided that all immigrants have lower expectations and standards of living. No. They decided that themselves when they decided to spend their summer in hundreds of miles away from their family to pick strawberries for the summer to undercut domestic labor. Surely, they're intelligent enough to act according to their best interests. > I take issue with the notion that immigrants inherently deserve less because of some perceived expectation of what is good enough for them based on where they came from. I don't think they deserve less. Unlike GP, I'm pro immigration. I just pointing out the incompatibility between both demanding a "living wage" and laxer immigration. The price of labor is determined by supply and demand just as like anything else with a price. Low-skill immigrants consume less than the average resident, so they increase the supply of low-skilled labor much more than the demand.
- everly 5y ago
  Out of curiosity, do you consider the federal minimum wage ($7.50, last updated in 2009) to be livable? I’d also point out that immigrants labor isn’t worth less in terms of pure output, but they’re forced to accept less because they aren’t offered the worker protections that citizens get. It’s not a fair supply/demand market. Reducing all immigrants to strawberry pickers hundreds of miles from their families is also questionable.
  - Aunche 5y ago
    > Out of curiosity, do you consider the federal minimum wage ($7.50, last updated in 2009) to be livable? The minimum wage is probably somewhat too low for the states, but is far too high for territories like Puerto Rico. Many employers can only afford to pay people less than minimum wage by either employing youths, who can be paid $4.25 an hour or remaining small enough to legally avoid having to pay minimum wage. Even then, labor force participation there is significantly lower than that of the US, which implies that a lot of them are simply working for less under the table. > It’s not a fair supply/demand market. We don't live in a perfectly efficient market. An American citizen is always going to have an advantage over a foreigner from a poor country no matter what. However, the fact millions of people work so hard to seek employment here is proof enough that the market is efficient enough to improve people's lives.
    - everly 5y ago
      Puerto Rico is not subject to the exact same minimum wage laws as the states, it has several exceptions. And even if it were, it’s laughable IMO to consider that a reason to punish workers in the rest of the US. “Sorry guys, we know you’re worth more but we can’t have those Puerto Ricans living too high on the hog” I don’t know, your point seems to boil down to ‘it’s just like that because of how it is’. Policy matters and can have an impact on the status quo. Sure, we don’t live in a perfectly efficient market but we can make improvements.
      - Aunche 5y ago
        > Puerto Rico is not subject to the exact same minimum wage laws as the states For a large part, it is. The exceptions are very limited in scope. The only reason their economy isn't completely messed up is because the minimum wage isn't enforced very well there. I'm not sure why you have the impression that I'm in favor of the status quo. I'm explaining why forcing employers to increase wages will do little to help domestic workers unless if you discourage immigration in some way. Even if you're able to double the minimum wage with minimal economic side effects, you would just incentivize even more immigrants to seek employment here.

by everly 5y ago

Aunche 5y ago

> I don’t think I suggested that I get to decide if a wage is livable. You are if you're implying that wages are somehow unlivable today. > And I guess I find it odd that you’ve, apparently, decided that all immigrants have lower expectations and standards of living. No. They decided that themselves when they decided to spend their summer in hundreds of miles away from their family to pick strawberries for the summer to undercut domestic labor. Surely, they're intelligent enough to act according to their best interests. > I take issue with the notion that immigrants inherently deserve less because of some perceived expectation of what is good enough for them based on where they came from. I don't think they deserve less. Unlike GP, I'm pro immigration. I just pointing out the incompatibility between both demanding a "living wage" and laxer immigration. The price of labor is determined by supply and demand just as like anything else with a price. Low-skill immigrants consume less than the average resident, so they increase the supply of low-skilled labor much more than the demand.

everly 5y ago
Out of curiosity, do you consider the federal minimum wage ($7.50, last updated in 2009) to be livable? I’d also point out that immigrants labor isn’t worth less in terms of pure output, but they’re forced to accept less because they aren’t offered the worker protections that citizens get. It’s not a fair supply/demand market. Reducing all immigrants to strawberry pickers hundreds of miles from their families is also questionable.
- Aunche 5y ago
  > Out of curiosity, do you consider the federal minimum wage ($7.50, last updated in 2009) to be livable? The minimum wage is probably somewhat too low for the states, but is far too high for territories like Puerto Rico. Many employers can only afford to pay people less than minimum wage by either employing youths, who can be paid $4.25 an hour or remaining small enough to legally avoid having to pay minimum wage. Even then, labor force participation there is significantly lower than that of the US, which implies that a lot of them are simply working for less under the table. > It’s not a fair supply/demand market. We don't live in a perfectly efficient market. An American citizen is always going to have an advantage over a foreigner from a poor country no matter what. However, the fact millions of people work so hard to seek employment here is proof enough that the market is efficient enough to improve people's lives.
  - everly 5y ago
    Puerto Rico is not subject to the exact same minimum wage laws as the states, it has several exceptions. And even if it were, it’s laughable IMO to consider that a reason to punish workers in the rest of the US. “Sorry guys, we know you’re worth more but we can’t have those Puerto Ricans living too high on the hog” I don’t know, your point seems to boil down to ‘it’s just like that because of how it is’. Policy matters and can have an impact on the status quo. Sure, we don’t live in a perfectly efficient market but we can make improvements.
    - Aunche 5y ago
      > Puerto Rico is not subject to the exact same minimum wage laws as the states For a large part, it is. The exceptions are very limited in scope. The only reason their economy isn't completely messed up is because the minimum wage isn't enforced very well there. I'm not sure why you have the impression that I'm in favor of the status quo. I'm explaining why forcing employers to increase wages will do little to help domestic workers unless if you discourage immigration in some way. Even if you're able to double the minimum wage with minimal economic side effects, you would just incentivize even more immigrants to seek employment here.