5 ms·

As someone in their 20s I’ve already come to terms with just how much wildlife I’ll never be able to see because previous generations decided to absolutely dest

by ecf 5y ago

As someone in their 20s I’ve already come to terms with just how much wildlife I’ll never be able to see because previous generations decided to absolutely destroy the planet.

bradleyjg 5y ago
No one decided that. It feels good to divide the world into good guys and bad guys, but if that’s your mental model of history and older people (like me) you are going to make mistaken judgments over and over again.
- EB66 5y ago
  What? Of course humans have decided to harm the environment. It happens every day and has happened for as long as humans have existed. I don't think his comment "divides the world into good guys and bad guys" -- it merely points out an abundantly obvious truth. Clear-cutting, overfishing, fossil fuel extraction, emissions, etc didn't just happen on their own -- they all required a human decision. Whether or not humans making these decisions realize that their actions will contribute to the irreparable harm of the environment is a moot point. The decisions are made and the harm is done. Even so, willful ignorance and indifference to the impact of ones actions are decisions too. If we ever want to turn the tide on global environmental destruction, then it is imperative that we as a society not diminish individual responsibility for the impact of one's decisions and actions.
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    Let’s play this out a little bit: I point out that your generation is also destroying the planet. You acknowledge that—-taking the position that we all are sinners to a greater or lesser extent. However, since the contemporary Western religion is Protestantism without a Christ, you don’t even have any salvation to offer. Just endless flagellation of self and others over our sinful natures. We should all do good works, of course, but we are bound to fail. O fortuna! Why not instead of hating humanity and spending your life impotently shaking your fist at our collective imperfections, look for systemic solutions that are compatible with human nature?
    - EB66 5y ago
      > I point out that your generation is also destroying the planet. No, not quite. You stated "no one decided [to harm the environment]". My reply sought to explain how that is incorrect. > You acknowledge that—-taking the position that we all are sinners to a greater or lesser extent. Again, not quite. "We are all sinners" is very different from 'humans have made decisions to harm the environment for a long time'. Those two are different. > However, since the contemporary Western religion is Protestantism without a Christ, you don’t even have any salvation to offer. Just endless flagellation of self and others over our sinful natures. We should all do good works, of course, but we are bound to fail. O fortuna! Wow, where to begin... > you don’t even have any salvation to offer. I'm advocating a very simple proposition: preserving the environment. Whether you want to liken it to "salvation" is entirely up to you. > We should all do good works, of course, but we are bound to fail. What an awful assertion. I'd hardly agree that environmental protection and preservation is a lost cause. > Why not instead of hating humanity Again, false. I do not "hate" humanity. > spending your life impotently shaking your fist at our collective imperfections, I could be wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that because something is difficult and that the result might not be unachievable, that it's therefore not worth trying. Again, I completely disagree. > look for systemic solutions that are compatible with human nature? Absolutely! There are an innumerable number of ways that we can protect and preserve the environment. In this thread, I'm contributing in a tiny way by dispelling the notion that "no one decided [to harm the environment]". As I stated above: If we ever want to turn the tide on global environmental destruction, then it is imperative that we as a society not diminish individual responsibility for the impact of one's decisions and actions.
      - bradleyjg 5y ago
        > In this thread, I'm contributing in a tiny way by dispelling the notion that "no one decided [to harm the environment]". As I stated above: If we ever want to turn the tide on global environmental destruction, then it is imperative that we as a society not diminish individual responsibility for the impact of one's decisions and actions. On the contrary preaching at people to change their sinful ways will never work. In fact, it’s likely to be counterproductive. But self righteous sure does feel good. If you really want to save the environment, and not just feel like a good person, invent ways to break the zero sum trade off curve between the environment and human flourishing in the short and medium term.
  - animal_spirits 5y ago
    We've exploited nature to bootstrap us into the information age we currently exist in. I don't condemn the efforts past humans have made so I can live in a world with instant fresh water to wash myself and to drink, markets with food, sewer systems to manage waste, roads, electricity, medicine, etc. We now have the tools humans have been dreaming of for millennia to make the world a better place. I personally think instead of looking backwards and blaming people for making mistakes, we should use the tools to look forward to accomplish the goals of the future; Human health, environmental health, agricultural sustainability, peace.
throwaway803453 5y ago
As someone in their 20's you are also likely lamenting the lack of affordable housing. One way to address it is to build more housing which which disrupts wildlife. Without affordable housing you might delay having children and getting married like I did. Wait too long and you might never be able to see your children or grandchildren because you won't have them. Reframing it that way might reduce resentment and ameliorate this perpetual blame of the previous generations. You'll have to pick your poison just like previous generations did only to later be criticized regardless of which poison you chose.
- rangersanger 5y ago
  Are you saying that the act of building affordable housing impacts wildlife/that affordable housing is built in locations disruptive to wildlife?
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    Funny how this is always the argument against affordable housing, and never the large detached single family dwellings in the far exurbs. Makes you wonder if the concerns are sincere…
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Not having children at allor at least less of them is a better way to protect the environment and housing though. If we continue to grow our population as we are we're going to run out of natural resources and space to live sooner or later. It'll cause some immediate societal issues like an unbalanced population pyramid just like the boomers did. But it'll be better in the long run.
- andrewzah 5y ago
  Thanks to inflation and skyrocketing tuition, etc, things are different for this generation. This isn't perpetually blaming each past generation; it's specifically blaming the boomer generation. Our "poisons" are home ownership being out of reach for a significant chunk of the population (therefore tossing money away instead of building wealth like previous generations), and our environment being destroyed with the help of our geriatric politicians. Let me just "reframe" that! [0]: https://news.yahoo.com/average-cost-college-jumped-incredible-122000732.html https://news.yahoo.com/average-cost-college-jumped-incredibl... [1]: https://archive.curbed.com/2018/4/10/17219786/buying-a-house-mortgage-government-gi-bill https://archive.curbed.com/2018/4/10/17219786/buying-a-house...

by ecf 5y ago

As someone in their 20s I’ve already come to terms with just how much wildlife I’ll never be able to see because previous generations decided to absolutely destroy the planet.

bradleyjg 5y ago

No one decided that. It feels good to divide the world into good guys and bad guys, but if that’s your mental model of history and older people (like me) you are going to make mistaken judgments over and over again.

EB66 5y ago
What? Of course humans have decided to harm the environment. It happens every day and has happened for as long as humans have existed. I don't think his comment "divides the world into good guys and bad guys" -- it merely points out an abundantly obvious truth. Clear-cutting, overfishing, fossil fuel extraction, emissions, etc didn't just happen on their own -- they all required a human decision. Whether or not humans making these decisions realize that their actions will contribute to the irreparable harm of the environment is a moot point. The decisions are made and the harm is done. Even so, willful ignorance and indifference to the impact of ones actions are decisions too. If we ever want to turn the tide on global environmental destruction, then it is imperative that we as a society not diminish individual responsibility for the impact of one's decisions and actions.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  Let’s play this out a little bit: I point out that your generation is also destroying the planet. You acknowledge that—-taking the position that we all are sinners to a greater or lesser extent. However, since the contemporary Western religion is Protestantism without a Christ, you don’t even have any salvation to offer. Just endless flagellation of self and others over our sinful natures. We should all do good works, of course, but we are bound to fail. O fortuna! Why not instead of hating humanity and spending your life impotently shaking your fist at our collective imperfections, look for systemic solutions that are compatible with human nature?
  - EB66 5y ago
    > I point out that your generation is also destroying the planet. No, not quite. You stated "no one decided [to harm the environment]". My reply sought to explain how that is incorrect. > You acknowledge that—-taking the position that we all are sinners to a greater or lesser extent. Again, not quite. "We are all sinners" is very different from 'humans have made decisions to harm the environment for a long time'. Those two are different. > However, since the contemporary Western religion is Protestantism without a Christ, you don’t even have any salvation to offer. Just endless flagellation of self and others over our sinful natures. We should all do good works, of course, but we are bound to fail. O fortuna! Wow, where to begin... > you don’t even have any salvation to offer. I'm advocating a very simple proposition: preserving the environment. Whether you want to liken it to "salvation" is entirely up to you. > We should all do good works, of course, but we are bound to fail. What an awful assertion. I'd hardly agree that environmental protection and preservation is a lost cause. > Why not instead of hating humanity Again, false. I do not "hate" humanity. > spending your life impotently shaking your fist at our collective imperfections, I could be wrong, but you seem to be suggesting that because something is difficult and that the result might not be unachievable, that it's therefore not worth trying. Again, I completely disagree. > look for systemic solutions that are compatible with human nature? Absolutely! There are an innumerable number of ways that we can protect and preserve the environment. In this thread, I'm contributing in a tiny way by dispelling the notion that "no one decided [to harm the environment]". As I stated above: If we ever want to turn the tide on global environmental destruction, then it is imperative that we as a society not diminish individual responsibility for the impact of one's decisions and actions.
    - bradleyjg 5y ago
      > In this thread, I'm contributing in a tiny way by dispelling the notion that "no one decided [to harm the environment]". As I stated above: If we ever want to turn the tide on global environmental destruction, then it is imperative that we as a society not diminish individual responsibility for the impact of one's decisions and actions. On the contrary preaching at people to change their sinful ways will never work. In fact, it’s likely to be counterproductive. But self righteous sure does feel good. If you really want to save the environment, and not just feel like a good person, invent ways to break the zero sum trade off curve between the environment and human flourishing in the short and medium term.
- animal_spirits 5y ago
  We've exploited nature to bootstrap us into the information age we currently exist in. I don't condemn the efforts past humans have made so I can live in a world with instant fresh water to wash myself and to drink, markets with food, sewer systems to manage waste, roads, electricity, medicine, etc. We now have the tools humans have been dreaming of for millennia to make the world a better place. I personally think instead of looking backwards and blaming people for making mistakes, we should use the tools to look forward to accomplish the goals of the future; Human health, environmental health, agricultural sustainability, peace.

throwaway803453 5y ago

As someone in their 20's you are also likely lamenting the lack of affordable housing. One way to address it is to build more housing which which disrupts wildlife. Without affordable housing you might delay having children and getting married like I did. Wait too long and you might never be able to see your children or grandchildren because you won't have them. Reframing it that way might reduce resentment and ameliorate this perpetual blame of the previous generations. You'll have to pick your poison just like previous generations did only to later be criticized regardless of which poison you chose.

rangersanger 5y ago
Are you saying that the act of building affordable housing impacts wildlife/that affordable housing is built in locations disruptive to wildlife?
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  Funny how this is always the argument against affordable housing, and never the large detached single family dwellings in the far exurbs. Makes you wonder if the concerns are sincere…
GekkePrutser 5y ago
Not having children at allor at least less of them is a better way to protect the environment and housing though. If we continue to grow our population as we are we're going to run out of natural resources and space to live sooner or later. It'll cause some immediate societal issues like an unbalanced population pyramid just like the boomers did. But it'll be better in the long run.
andrewzah 5y ago
Thanks to inflation and skyrocketing tuition, etc, things are different for this generation. This isn't perpetually blaming each past generation; it's specifically blaming the boomer generation. Our "poisons" are home ownership being out of reach for a significant chunk of the population (therefore tossing money away instead of building wealth like previous generations), and our environment being destroyed with the help of our geriatric politicians. Let me just "reframe" that! [0]: https://news.yahoo.com/average-cost-college-jumped-incredible-122000732.html https://news.yahoo.com/average-cost-college-jumped-incredibl... [1]: https://archive.curbed.com/2018/4/10/17219786/buying-a-house-mortgage-government-gi-bill https://archive.curbed.com/2018/4/10/17219786/buying-a-house...