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Can I ask where you're from? This might be a cultural difference. I mentioned originally in another comment (then removed it as it looked a bit hostile) that th

by smcl 5y ago

Can I ask where you're from? This might be a cultural difference. I mentioned originally in another comment (then removed it as it looked a bit hostile) that this might be something more US-centric as it hasn't been a problem anywhere I've seen in Europe. I don't mean to bash the USA here, but I think there might be more "this is a free country and I can do what I want..." types over there who (if they have a dog) are more likely to not be considerate of others or respond aggressively when confronted about such behaviour. We'd be talking in cliches and stereotypes of course, but I imagine that sort of person is antisocial generally. I dunno, I'm just trying to rationalize the stark differences in our experiences because here dog owners are by and large extremely considerate.

blamazon 5y ago
I think we’re already past cliches and stereotypes when talking of all dog owners who walk without a leash! I’m from USA. On the same page with you here about the collectivist vs individual freedom. As you noted it’s a tragedy of the commons—-because unquestioned individual freedom is prized so heavily in USA, some dog owners take advantage of it without appropriate precaution, and those people tend to do things like call the police on black people, or scare and injure children by accident with their dogs, and these incidents correspondingly build our stereotype of off-leashers. Ironically this also leads to laws and rules and a general social attitude that restrict our individual freedom to walk dogs off leash. In that way, Europeans are more ‘individually free’ on this topic because, as you note, off leash dog walking is totally normal over there because people wouldn’t think of doing it without appropriate control of their dog. Interesting to think about the tension and paradoxes between individual and collectivist freedoms. But, you probably have some annoying dog tax ;)
- smcl 5y ago
  We actually do have such a tax! And I'm glad you reminded me because my residency status changed meaning that I now need to start paying this :D The tax is from the local municipality, and I think it’s for upkeep of some dog infrastructure - dedicated dog parks, bins with little bags. It’s not much
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- alentist 5y ago
  > As you noted it’s a tragedy of the commons—-because unquestioned individual freedom is prized so heavily in USA, some dog owners take advantage of it without appropriate precaution, and those people tend to do things like call the police on black people This passage doesn't make sense. It's a word salad.
  - blamazon 5y ago
    Blame the Saturday cannabis.
    - smcl 5y ago
      Happens to me even when I’m not under the influence
  - smcl 5y ago
    Wait it's not actually word salad, it makes sense. I was out and about and wasn't able to spend time reading it before dashing off my flippant jokey reply below, so I only read it now. So despite the Saturday Spliff, blamazon is pretty coherent. Can you describe what doesn't make sense to you?
    - alentist 5y ago
      I'm not sure where to begin, and frankly I'm astonished you think any of it "makes sense". To start with, do you know what a tragedy of the commons is? Second, why would "individual freedom being prized so heavily" entail "people tending to do things like call the police"? Are you familiar with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_collaborator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_collaborator and the like in authoritarian countries? Third, what's the source for this bizarre claim that "those [dog owners] tend to do things like call the police on black people"? Fourth, in what way is the latter at all relevant to the topic?
elvischidera 5y ago
Not sure. I will just share my own personal experience. I live in Germany and I go to parks to freestyle with a soccer ball. My issue has always been dogs off lease interfering with my personal business. I have some balls with bite marks. I have been snubbed and sometimes gotten a rude response from owners. I have lived in the USA also. My observation generally is that people find it weird when you say you don't like dogs/cats/etc -- almost like they are hearing it for the first time. This was a big difference from my home place. I don't hate them, I just feel totally uncomfortable. Sometimes I feel my heart racing or I just totally freeze when I see a dog off lease nearby. (I would love to fix this: would appreciate any pointers).
- FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
  > I don't hate them, I just feel totally uncomfortable. That's an interesting sentence.
- smcl 5y ago
  Ah so that’s the sort of inconsiderate stuff I was saying I havent personally seen, but I guess it does exist here after all. So if there are people playing with something a dog might consider a “toy” (a frisbee, football etc) or having a picnic everyone I know would leash their dog unless they’re the type who are totally not into these things (some dogs are enamoured with their owners and just are not interested in the outside world). Mine wouldn’t bother anyone, he’s too interested in his own frisbee, but I do it as its just a good idea anyway I’ve had a couple of friends who were afraid like you, where I would not bring my dog (a Vizsla - Quite energetic and very into people, so not a good idea to take him if I want those friends to feel comfortable). They started to come round to dogs generally after hanging out with friends that have smaller more docile breeds. Eventually they felt more comfortable and after shorter interactions with mine they got familiar with how the dog behaves, what motivates them, what they understand etc and slowly figure out that most are similar. So I’m not sure this is helpful, but that’s been my experience.
Scarblac 5y ago
In the Netherlands people who let their dogs free without a leash is a huge problem in many areas. Despite huge warning signs, people let them off the leash and they kill roe deer cubs and other wildlife. And they all say their dog is well behaved and doesn't do such things.

by smcl 5y ago

blamazon 5y ago

I think we’re already past cliches and stereotypes when talking of all dog owners who walk without a leash! I’m from USA. On the same page with you here about the collectivist vs individual freedom. As you noted it’s a tragedy of the commons—-because unquestioned individual freedom is prized so heavily in USA, some dog owners take advantage of it without appropriate precaution, and those people tend to do things like call the police on black people, or scare and injure children by accident with their dogs, and these incidents correspondingly build our stereotype of off-leashers. Ironically this also leads to laws and rules and a general social attitude that restrict our individual freedom to walk dogs off leash. In that way, Europeans are more ‘individually free’ on this topic because, as you note, off leash dog walking is totally normal over there because people wouldn’t think of doing it without appropriate control of their dog. Interesting to think about the tension and paradoxes between individual and collectivist freedoms. But, you probably have some annoying dog tax ;)

smcl 5y ago
We actually do have such a tax! And I'm glad you reminded me because my residency status changed meaning that I now need to start paying this :D The tax is from the local municipality, and I think it’s for upkeep of some dog infrastructure - dedicated dog parks, bins with little bags. It’s not much
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
alentist 5y ago
> As you noted it’s a tragedy of the commons—-because unquestioned individual freedom is prized so heavily in USA, some dog owners take advantage of it without appropriate precaution, and those people tend to do things like call the police on black people This passage doesn't make sense. It's a word salad.
- blamazon 5y ago
  Blame the Saturday cannabis.
  - smcl 5y ago
    Happens to me even when I’m not under the influence
- smcl 5y ago
  Wait it's not actually word salad, it makes sense. I was out and about and wasn't able to spend time reading it before dashing off my flippant jokey reply below, so I only read it now. So despite the Saturday Spliff, blamazon is pretty coherent. Can you describe what doesn't make sense to you?
  - alentist 5y ago
    I'm not sure where to begin, and frankly I'm astonished you think any of it "makes sense". To start with, do you know what a tragedy of the commons is? Second, why would "individual freedom being prized so heavily" entail "people tending to do things like call the police"? Are you familiar with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_collaborator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unofficial_collaborator and the like in authoritarian countries? Third, what's the source for this bizarre claim that "those [dog owners] tend to do things like call the police on black people"? Fourth, in what way is the latter at all relevant to the topic?

elvischidera 5y ago

Not sure. I will just share my own personal experience. I live in Germany and I go to parks to freestyle with a soccer ball. My issue has always been dogs off lease interfering with my personal business. I have some balls with bite marks. I have been snubbed and sometimes gotten a rude response from owners. I have lived in the USA also. My observation generally is that people find it weird when you say you don't like dogs/cats/etc -- almost like they are hearing it for the first time. This was a big difference from my home place. I don't hate them, I just feel totally uncomfortable. Sometimes I feel my heart racing or I just totally freeze when I see a dog off lease nearby. (I would love to fix this: would appreciate any pointers).

FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
> I don't hate them, I just feel totally uncomfortable. That's an interesting sentence.
smcl 5y ago
Ah so that’s the sort of inconsiderate stuff I was saying I havent personally seen, but I guess it does exist here after all. So if there are people playing with something a dog might consider a “toy” (a frisbee, football etc) or having a picnic everyone I know would leash their dog unless they’re the type who are totally not into these things (some dogs are enamoured with their owners and just are not interested in the outside world). Mine wouldn’t bother anyone, he’s too interested in his own frisbee, but I do it as its just a good idea anyway I’ve had a couple of friends who were afraid like you, where I would not bring my dog (a Vizsla - Quite energetic and very into people, so not a good idea to take him if I want those friends to feel comfortable). They started to come round to dogs generally after hanging out with friends that have smaller more docile breeds. Eventually they felt more comfortable and after shorter interactions with mine they got familiar with how the dog behaves, what motivates them, what they understand etc and slowly figure out that most are similar. So I’m not sure this is helpful, but that’s been my experience.

Scarblac 5y ago

In the Netherlands people who let their dogs free without a leash is a huge problem in many areas. Despite huge warning signs, people let them off the leash and they kill roe deer cubs and other wildlife. And they all say their dog is well behaved and doesn't do such things.