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- obviously (to almost everyone) these are unfalsifiable standards that self-proclaimed far left extremists have created to invalidate everyone's thoughts but t
by jb775 5y ago
- obviously (to almost everyone) these are unfalsifiable standards that self-proclaimed far left extremists have created to invalidate everyone's thoughts but their own
The current state of social discourse is essentially landmines in the form of Kafkatraps[1]. Once there's any form of discussion on an unfalsifiable topic, it provides the leftist with a false sense of justification, simply because it was discussed...even if the leftist's reasoning made no sense and they lost the debate. Then they use the false justification to trick low-intelligence people into believing it's actually justified.
This has led us into a race towards the bottom within society, catering to the loudest complainer in the room. Crabs in a bucket.
Seems like the only real way to counter these unfalsifiable arguments is to call the person a fucking clown and tell them what a kafkatrap is.
[1] https://www.thedailybell.com/all-articles/editorials/wendy-mcelroy-beware-of-kafkatrapping/ https://www.thedailybell.com/all-articles/editorials/wendy-m...
- damagednoob 5y ago> Then they use the false justification to trick low-intelligence people into believing it's actually justified. I don't agree with this. Anyone who has been following politics has noticed the growth in the left's base, mainly from the college educated. A lot of these activists seem to be motivated by the (ironically) paternalistic notion that they know better than the groups they advocate for.
- benrbray 5y agoI see quite a few unsubstantiated claims like this being thrown around in this thread. Can you help by clarifying 1) which activists? 2) which groups to which they do not belong are they speaking on behalf of? 3) in what way do they think they know better? 4) who among these groups has spoken out against what activists say? and 5) what gives you the impression that the activists have not consulted with the groups they represent (if they are not themselves members of the group)?
- dgfitz 5y ago1) the woke ones. 2) see the comment up thread about the disabled person expected to to fall in line because they’re part of a minority group. 3) see kafkatrap. 4) unsure what you’re asking. 5) see latinx conversation up thread.
- damagednoob 5y agoWhat triggered my comment was episode 225 of Rationally Speaking[1]. In it, there was an interview with Veena Dubal[2] where she (according to the podcast) is a prominent advocate for AB5 [3]. In it, she concedes that taxi drivers themselves have been polled[4] and _do not_ want be classified as employees and want to maintain their independent contractor status. So in answer to your bullet points: 1) Veena Dubal 2) Uber drivers (I mean, I could be mistaken. Perhaps this professor of law moonlights as an Uber driver. If so, I would continue to argue that this is not her main vocation.) 3) She wants Uber drivers to be classified as employees 4) The majority of Uber drivers 5) Nothing and I never said they hadn't consulted. In this case, quite clearly they have consulted with the groups but have not listened. Now, in the podcast, Dubal goes on to dispute the polling methodology of the various polls. Well okay, re-poll with your questions and present the data. The point I'm trying to make is that you don't ram through legislation before convincing the people you're going to affect the most that it's good for them. Educate and convince them first. [1]: http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/255-are-uber-and-lyft-drivers-being-exploited/ http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/255-are-uber-and-lyft-d... [2]: https://www.uchastings.edu/people/veena-dubal/ https://www.uchastings.edu/people/veena-dubal/ [3]: https://www.investopedia.com/california-assembly-bill-5-ab5-4773201 https://www.investopedia.com/california-assembly-bill-5-ab5-... [4]: https://thehill.com/policy/technology/513506-uber-poll-drivers-overwhelmingly-support-independent-contractor-status https://thehill.com/policy/technology/513506-uber-poll-drive...
- goatinaboat 5y agolow-intelligence people mainly from the college educated What would you call going $200,000 into debt for a non-STEM degree? College education is no sign of intelligence, it’s often the opposite.
- scandox 5y agoGotta agree here. Only Americans think University and brains are directly correlated.
- ta988 5y agoAbsolutely untrue, seen that all over Europe as well.
- ryanbrunner 5y agoCollege education, including a fair amount of STEM, is an admission fee to be considered middle-class (or higher, depending on which school you went to). Nothing more. What you actually learn in college is 100% secondary to being able to say that you went to school X (and have the connections from that school).
- tremon 5y agoYou're assuming that intelligent and college-educated are near-synonyms. I've seen plenty of evidence that's not necessarily true.
- bjourne 5y agoIs this evidence you speak of your own personal and subjective experience or is it peer-reviewed studies? If it is of the latter kind, could you provide some citations for me to peruse?
- tremon 5y agoYes, it is the peer-reviewed studies, and in particular their quality, that I'm speaking of.
- whymauri 5y agowhy do people always link the worst possible site to cite the kafkatrap? it's literally a conspiracy theory site encouraging a prosecution of Fauci on the front page.
- deadA1ias 5y agoThank you! I now know what this phenomenon is called. I went through "diversity training" when I worked at a university, and was appalled at the presentation. The Kafkatrap was _exactly_ the trick used throughout the entire "Q&A". It was so insidious, bit I didn't have a name for it -- now I do.
- jb775 5y agoIt kind of blew my mind when I first heard of the term last year. The comment thread of my source article is really interesting as well. It's one of those concepts that everyone understands, but there wasn't really a word for. It still kind of hurts by brain how no one can come up with a solid rebuttal to the situation (this is what the article's comment thread touches on). Which leads me to believe this is somewhat of a forefront in human understanding/psychology.
- salawat 5y agoI've been calling people who spread these kafkatrap things out for exactly what they are. People completely out of touch with how logic or reason works. Of course, they aren't interested in that, since logic is "the Master's Tools" of oppression.
- type0 5y agoWell, you know what no self respecting sjw should be interested in programming digital technology. /s Since it's all ones and zeros it's all binary, but they live in a non binary world, there are no men and women, a world of subtleties, everything is done in a shade of oppression and power. Only the level is different, you can be violent with words, express microaggressions or even nanoagression. You are the most privileged with the least amounts of pigmentation, albinos are at the height of it so it seems. Someone give these people a Nobel price ASAP.
- tomnipotent 5y ago> it provides the leftist It's no different than the far-right unfalsifiable standards that were enforced for centuries, more often than not with religious overtones. Let's not pretend this is a left/right thing, so much as it's just an extremist thing. Only now, the leftist is using the outrage tactic just as effectively as the right, which has lost a lot of its moral high ground on most social issues.
- toyg 5y agoYeah. Tbh it reminds me very much of the classic LBJ quote "let's make him deny it".
- rurban 5y agoExactly. I identify as strict antifascist and leftist, but cannot understand why the extremist social justice warriors are identified as leftist. Eg there was this citation by them > creates a “not safe work environment.” On the contrary, calling for censorship and heated nonscientific, political discussion on the workplace, esp. against conservatives, creates a non safe work environment. It also cripples science. Formerly they were called out as religious zealots, not leftists.
- nandhinianand 5y agoExactly... wanted to say this... I don't subscribe to the left vs right dichotomy to begin with, but "kafkatrapping" is a tactic used by both sides. When I was reading the link, I was reminded of a ex-colleague, who thought my transition was wrong because it is pandering to the inherent evil in me. Ah...
- vmception 5y agoAgreed and I dislike how these conversations just embolden people to invite us into their right wing filter bubble after they see our dissatisfaction with left wing filter bubbles For now I’m satisfied with the reversion to the mean of not talking politics at work
- throwaway894345 5y ago
- yosito 5y ago> Seems like the only real way to counter these unfalsifiable arguments is to call the person a fucking clown and tell them what a kafkatrap is. I think a better strategy is to avoid engaging them in the first place.
- golergka 5y agoThis may be would be effective, but this is also the same as "deplatforming" tactic that they use. If you're the kind of person who wants to defend the spirit of rational, open debate, isn't refusing to engage someone a tactic that on itself contradicts those views?
- loopz 5y agoDo you engage all the BS at work, or do you let it burn itself? Whatever arguments you have need time to become more constructive, neutral and obvious. Arguments back and forth is fruitless and depleting.