6 ms·

Hopelessly perfect: Why it’s smart to work at a no-shot startup

119 points by g0atbutt 15y ago

Troll_Whisperer 15y ago
I agree with one point-- working at any start-up, even a no-shot one, makes corporate rules chafe all the more if you ever go back to that world.
rriepe 15y ago
There's no such thing as a big name startup. Like my friend says, if you have an HR department, you are no longer a startup. You have started. You are up.
- alttab 15y ago
  I up voted because you have a point, but companies could have a big name, an hr department but very little or no revenue or repeatable business model. Unless it's bootstrapped and tiny, owing investors a return on their investment either through additional financing rounds or net revenue sounds like it's still starting/growing to me. I generally agree that once you are doing it, you are doing it.
  - parfe 15y ago
    Once you have a department that dictates you get 4 days bereavement leave when a parent, spouse, or child dies, 3 days off for a sibling, 2 days off for the death of a step- relation and 1 day off for a cousin you are no longer a startup. I turned down a job at a company that wanted me to agree to those terms. edit, Bonus Requirement From the Handbook: Employees of [Redacted Inc.] are not to correspond with anybody who is not a current customer or current employee of this company, without express written permission from the CEO or the President.
tobias3 15y ago
Well as a real hacker you get that experience at the age of 12 when you join a "team" to make a P2P MMORPG. After that you kind of learn to recognize people+idea combinations which work and which don't work.
- kalleboo 15y ago
  I don't get why this is downvoted because it's pretty much true. I definitely learned to identify the kind of unproductive enthusiast teams without the talent required to get anything done the blog post lays out from all the "let's make this awesome game" forum endeavors of my youth.
  - jasonshen 15y ago
    It was probably downvoted because of the inference that this is the only path for "real" hackers and that if you haven't had this experience by age 12, it's over for you. There are many ways to gain product / building-things / startup experience.
jechen 15y ago
There seems to be this perception that the startups who never get past seed-stage (or end up raising any money at all) are automatically labeled as "no-shot". I digress. Nonetheless I find the post to be an interesting and insightful read and continue to find myself awestruck at just how much the startup ecosystem has grown and matured over the past few years.
- randall 15y ago
  I took this out of the article... I should put it back in. No-shot is "deck is stacked against you." Not "you will fail."
gamble 15y ago
Ugh. This article confuses being a founder of a poorly run startup with being an employee. At least as a founder, you probably learn something of use. Aspiring to be a employee at a company where no one knows what they're doing is soul-killing career suicide. > Make a mistake at the bottom of the spectrum, and there’s so many people making so many mistakes that it’s unlikely your mistakes will give you a bad reputation. On the other hand, screw up a company with $41mm in funding, and those mistakes are likely to follow you. No. Totally wrong. Work for a startup that no one has heard of, and they will never care about your successes any more than your failures. Work for an startup with a great team and you'll build relationships that help down the line regardless of how badly the company does. Barring gross incompetence, hardly anyone holds business failure against founders, much less employees.
- randall 15y ago
  True in Silicon Valley, but I've witnessed people (in publishing specifically) who were spectacular screw-ups at publishing /startups/ and they screwed themselves over professionally. In Silicon Valley, screwups don't follow you. In other industries, I think they can / do. I'd also emphasize that I know my share of YC founders, and I have a pool of people who want to work in startups but don't have a ton of skills, nor any real resume from which to speak from... and for people who aren't willing to pack up and move to SF for some reason (family, money, etc.) joining a crap no-shot startup is at least something, compared to the nothing they're going to get by working at a gas station.
  - wisty 15y ago
    Is that rational? I can see why, for example, airlines don't get a second chance. If you even give off a whiff of cluelessness in aviation, nobody will want to touch you again - there's too much at stake. Other industries are less risky, but a lack of professionalism can still be expensive - people are relying on you to help carry their project. On the other hand, there's plenty of cases where management is just too thick to deal with risk. In either case (risk is bad, or management can't handle it), screwing up can be a career limiting move.
TheSkeptic 15y ago
"If you’ve already identified that your goal is not to work for soulless companies, you need to start working for startups." This is a false choice. It assumes that most established companies have no "soul", but that most startups do. This is simply not true. "Crucially, the biggest advantage of working lower down the spectrum is that mistakes don’t stick with you. In general, mistakes don’t typically stick with you, but the further up the spectrum you go, the tighter knit the community. Make a mistake at the bottom of the spectrum, and there’s enough people making mistakes that it’s unlikely your mistakes will give you a bad reputation. On the other hand, screw up a company with $41mm in funding, and those mistakes are more likely to follow you." Obviously, there are good mistakes and bad mistakes, but in general, making career decisions based on where your mistakes will go unnoticed is a path to mediocrity, or worse. Anyone interested in progressing as a professional should think twice about working at a company where major mistakes are of no consequence. It's hard to improve yourself if you're surrounded by incompetence, and if mistakes made out of ineptitude or negligence have no impact on your reputation, chances are you're not working on anything that matters.
- nostrademons 15y ago
  There's a lot of nuance in that choice that's unlikely to come across in a comment. You want to be in a company where you are accountable for your mistakes. You do not want a company where those mistakes follow you. It's a very subtle difference between them, but basically you need to be in a culture where each mistake is a learning experience, not a shaming experience. Don't make it again, but also don't worry about having made it.
shareme 15y ago
Its somewhat a fallacy.. Simple Logic..if the no-shot start-up is an option that best option is your own-formed start-up. Do not buy BS from BS-artists or share-croppers if you intend to be neither..
fgere 15y ago
ONLINE STORE : ====( http://www.etradinglife.com http://www.etradinglife.com )===== The website wholesale for many kinds of fashion shoes, like the nike,jordan,prada,, also including the jeans,shirts,bags,hat and the decorations. All the products are free shipping, and the the price is competitive, and also can accept the paypal payment.,after the payment, can ship within short time. free shipping competitive price any size available accept the paypal jordan shoes $32 nike shox $32 Christan Audigier bikini $23 Ed Hardy Bikini $23 Smful short_t-shirt_woman $15 ed hardy short_tank_woman $16 Sandal $32 christian louboutin $80 Sunglass $15 COACH_Necklace $27 handbag $33 AF tank woman $17 puma slipper woman $30 ====( http://www.etradinglife.com http://www.etradinglife.com )=====
localhost3000 15y ago
Your 3 months was my 3 years. Our biggest problem was that we were funded by our founder to the tune of several million dollars. It took us 2 years to launch our product. The mix of having cash but no outside investors to report to (we did in the end but by then it was too late to matter) meant there was no urgency. We were insanely inefficient and slow moving. We lived in a bubble for 2 years drinking our own koolaid. The founders were first time entrepreneurs and all the staff were too young to know better. Though I learned a ton (mostly about what not to do), it's a difficult to explain black mark on my resume. Beware first time founders with inside $$.
- dennisgorelik 15y ago
  Where did the founder get millions to fund you for two years?
  - localhost3000 15y ago
    Very successful career as a corporate exec
    - dennisgorelik 15y ago
      Yeap: that kind of money are dangerous for a start up.
- blackguardx 15y ago
  How is it a black mark?
softbuilder 15y ago
This reminds me of "Build one to throw away; you're going to do it anyway."
viandante 15y ago
Frankly speaking, I think the most important would be to acquire those skills usually needed in start ups. After that, you can work as a professional and not a mere employee. The issue then is: how do I acquire those skills (given that University will not give you those)? And just there is not post on HN about this.
mbesto 15y ago
Did this for about a year. It was easily the best experience of my life. Once you get to actually "feel" the ramifications of everything you do at work only then can you really understand how a business operates. This was for a 2-person founded start-up btw.
makthrow 15y ago
Heh. If you want to work at a no-shot startup PM me. You'd be full co-founder along with myself and learn a crapload, as you'd be taking lead CTO role. I can't say it's better than working for a big-name startup but I do think you'd learn more because we can make mistakes as we go.
- randall 15y ago
  It's unlikely that you'll find people this way... you should go meet people in your area and see if there's anyone interested. What's your startup? Why aren't you the technical guy?
  - makthrow 15y ago
    Hey Randall, that's good advice. i've just started meeting people in my area. (Boston). I'm not the technical guy because it's simply not my strength. I could probably code the thing in a year but someone else could do it in a few months with much better code. IN any case I'm building the prototype as solo founder right now.
    - randall 15y ago
      If you're a first time founder, just code it yourself. Spend some time learning how to code so you'll know how to sort through good and bad tech folks in the future.

119 points by g0atbutt 15y ago

I agree with one point-- working at any start-up, even a no-shot one, makes corporate rules chafe all the more if you ever go back to that world.

rriepe 15y ago

There's no such thing as a big name startup. Like my friend says, if you have an HR department, you are no longer a startup. You have started. You are up.

alttab 15y ago
I up voted because you have a point, but companies could have a big name, an hr department but very little or no revenue or repeatable business model. Unless it's bootstrapped and tiny, owing investors a return on their investment either through additional financing rounds or net revenue sounds like it's still starting/growing to me. I generally agree that once you are doing it, you are doing it.
- parfe 15y ago
  Once you have a department that dictates you get 4 days bereavement leave when a parent, spouse, or child dies, 3 days off for a sibling, 2 days off for the death of a step- relation and 1 day off for a cousin you are no longer a startup. I turned down a job at a company that wanted me to agree to those terms. edit, Bonus Requirement From the Handbook: Employees of [Redacted Inc.] are not to correspond with anybody who is not a current customer or current employee of this company, without express written permission from the CEO or the President.

tobias3 15y ago

Well as a real hacker you get that experience at the age of 12 when you join a "team" to make a P2P MMORPG. After that you kind of learn to recognize people+idea combinations which work and which don't work.

kalleboo 15y ago
I don't get why this is downvoted because it's pretty much true. I definitely learned to identify the kind of unproductive enthusiast teams without the talent required to get anything done the blog post lays out from all the "let's make this awesome game" forum endeavors of my youth.
- jasonshen 15y ago
  It was probably downvoted because of the inference that this is the only path for "real" hackers and that if you haven't had this experience by age 12, it's over for you. There are many ways to gain product / building-things / startup experience.

jechen 15y ago

There seems to be this perception that the startups who never get past seed-stage (or end up raising any money at all) are automatically labeled as "no-shot". I digress. Nonetheless I find the post to be an interesting and insightful read and continue to find myself awestruck at just how much the startup ecosystem has grown and matured over the past few years.

randall 15y ago
I took this out of the article... I should put it back in. No-shot is "deck is stacked against you." Not "you will fail."

gamble 15y ago

Ugh. This article confuses being a founder of a poorly run startup with being an employee. At least as a founder, you probably learn something of use. Aspiring to be a employee at a company where no one knows what they're doing is soul-killing career suicide. > Make a mistake at the bottom of the spectrum, and there’s so many people making so many mistakes that it’s unlikely your mistakes will give you a bad reputation. On the other hand, screw up a company with $41mm in funding, and those mistakes are likely to follow you. No. Totally wrong. Work for a startup that no one has heard of, and they will never care about your successes any more than your failures. Work for an startup with a great team and you'll build relationships that help down the line regardless of how badly the company does. Barring gross incompetence, hardly anyone holds business failure against founders, much less employees.

randall 15y ago
True in Silicon Valley, but I've witnessed people (in publishing specifically) who were spectacular screw-ups at publishing /startups/ and they screwed themselves over professionally. In Silicon Valley, screwups don't follow you. In other industries, I think they can / do. I'd also emphasize that I know my share of YC founders, and I have a pool of people who want to work in startups but don't have a ton of skills, nor any real resume from which to speak from... and for people who aren't willing to pack up and move to SF for some reason (family, money, etc.) joining a crap no-shot startup is at least something, compared to the nothing they're going to get by working at a gas station.
- wisty 15y ago
  Is that rational? I can see why, for example, airlines don't get a second chance. If you even give off a whiff of cluelessness in aviation, nobody will want to touch you again - there's too much at stake. Other industries are less risky, but a lack of professionalism can still be expensive - people are relying on you to help carry their project. On the other hand, there's plenty of cases where management is just too thick to deal with risk. In either case (risk is bad, or management can't handle it), screwing up can be a career limiting move.

TheSkeptic 15y ago

"If you’ve already identified that your goal is not to work for soulless companies, you need to start working for startups." This is a false choice. It assumes that most established companies have no "soul", but that most startups do. This is simply not true. "Crucially, the biggest advantage of working lower down the spectrum is that mistakes don’t stick with you. In general, mistakes don’t typically stick with you, but the further up the spectrum you go, the tighter knit the community. Make a mistake at the bottom of the spectrum, and there’s enough people making mistakes that it’s unlikely your mistakes will give you a bad reputation. On the other hand, screw up a company with $41mm in funding, and those mistakes are more likely to follow you." Obviously, there are good mistakes and bad mistakes, but in general, making career decisions based on where your mistakes will go unnoticed is a path to mediocrity, or worse. Anyone interested in progressing as a professional should think twice about working at a company where major mistakes are of no consequence. It's hard to improve yourself if you're surrounded by incompetence, and if mistakes made out of ineptitude or negligence have no impact on your reputation, chances are you're not working on anything that matters.

nostrademons 15y ago
There's a lot of nuance in that choice that's unlikely to come across in a comment. You want to be in a company where you are accountable for your mistakes. You do not want a company where those mistakes follow you. It's a very subtle difference between them, but basically you need to be in a culture where each mistake is a learning experience, not a shaming experience. Don't make it again, but also don't worry about having made it.

shareme 15y ago

Its somewhat a fallacy.. Simple Logic..if the no-shot start-up is an option that best option is your own-formed start-up. Do not buy BS from BS-artists or share-croppers if you intend to be neither..

fgere 15y ago

ONLINE STORE : ====( http://www.etradinglife.com http://www.etradinglife.com )===== The website wholesale for many kinds of fashion shoes, like the nike,jordan,prada,, also including the jeans,shirts,bags,hat and the decorations. All the products are free shipping, and the the price is competitive, and also can accept the paypal payment.,after the payment, can ship within short time. free shipping competitive price any size available accept the paypal jordan shoes $32 nike shox $32 Christan Audigier bikini $23 Ed Hardy Bikini $23 Smful short_t-shirt_woman $15 ed hardy short_tank_woman $16 Sandal $32 christian louboutin $80 Sunglass $15 COACH_Necklace $27 handbag $33 AF tank woman $17 puma slipper woman $30 ====( http://www.etradinglife.com http://www.etradinglife.com )=====

localhost3000 15y ago

Your 3 months was my 3 years. Our biggest problem was that we were funded by our founder to the tune of several million dollars. It took us 2 years to launch our product. The mix of having cash but no outside investors to report to (we did in the end but by then it was too late to matter) meant there was no urgency. We were insanely inefficient and slow moving. We lived in a bubble for 2 years drinking our own koolaid. The founders were first time entrepreneurs and all the staff were too young to know better. Though I learned a ton (mostly about what not to do), it's a difficult to explain black mark on my resume. Beware first time founders with inside $$.

dennisgorelik 15y ago
Where did the founder get millions to fund you for two years?
- localhost3000 15y ago
  Very successful career as a corporate exec
  - dennisgorelik 15y ago
    Yeap: that kind of money are dangerous for a start up.
blackguardx 15y ago
How is it a black mark?

softbuilder 15y ago

This reminds me of "Build one to throw away; you're going to do it anyway."

viandante 15y ago

Frankly speaking, I think the most important would be to acquire those skills usually needed in start ups. After that, you can work as a professional and not a mere employee. The issue then is: how do I acquire those skills (given that University will not give you those)? And just there is not post on HN about this.

mbesto 15y ago

Did this for about a year. It was easily the best experience of my life. Once you get to actually "feel" the ramifications of everything you do at work only then can you really understand how a business operates. This was for a 2-person founded start-up btw.

makthrow 15y ago

Heh. If you want to work at a no-shot startup PM me. You'd be full co-founder along with myself and learn a crapload, as you'd be taking lead CTO role. I can't say it's better than working for a big-name startup but I do think you'd learn more because we can make mistakes as we go.

randall 15y ago
It's unlikely that you'll find people this way... you should go meet people in your area and see if there's anyone interested. What's your startup? Why aren't you the technical guy?
- makthrow 15y ago
  Hey Randall, that's good advice. i've just started meeting people in my area. (Boston). I'm not the technical guy because it's simply not my strength. I could probably code the thing in a year but someone else could do it in a few months with much better code. IN any case I'm building the prototype as solo founder right now.
  - randall 15y ago
    If you're a first time founder, just code it yourself. Spend some time learning how to code so you'll know how to sort through good and bad tech folks in the future.