5 ms·

Why do you have to be so negative? This rat is not at any risk of harm because it is too small to trigger the mines. I would say this rat has been and will cont

by zaybqp 5y ago

Why do you have to be so negative? This rat is not at any risk of harm because it is too small to trigger the mines. I would say this rat has been and will continue to be very well taken care of. It is also wholesome that people celebrate its "retirement" and appreciate its accomplishments. Your criticism is off base and rabid.

jaas 5y ago
I think this story about the rat and what it did is cool, it makes me happy, but I do agree with OP that the language of the story misrepresents the reality of the situation. If I was given total control over your life and made you work for me, would you be ok with that so long as, according to me, I treated you well enough? I doubt it. That isn’t the point though. This is not a debate about whether anyone thinks the rat is being treated well. The rat did not consent to this (because it can’t), so this is, factually, forced labor. I am ok with it in this situation, but let’s call it what it is and express gratitude for what the rat did to clean up human messes. Second, you can’t do something heroically if you either 1) don’t know what you are doing and what the risks are or 2) there are no risks. Take your pick, but either way it isn’t heroic. The rat did a great thing for us but hero is not the right word.
- zaybqp 5y ago
  I am not debating anyone. I just pointed out an invalid and unreasonably negative criticism for what is a feel-good news story. Back to your point. Do we ask for consent from working dogs? Have you ever seen news about "heroic" rescue dogs? What is your point really? Is it that we need to stop employing animals? Do we need to stop using anthropomorphic terms? Do we need to establish a ministry of truth and speech to regulate that? To quote Zoolander, I feel like I am taking crazy pills responding to these comments.
- crooked-v 5y ago
  > The rat did not consent to this (because it can’t), so this is, factually, forced labor. On the other hand, anyone who's owned an uncooperative dog will know that it's nigh-impossible to effectively train an animal who just doesn't feel like playing along.
  - celticninja 5y ago
    And also a dog will do what you ask it because you ask it and it wants too help you. My husky used to pull me on my bike. He knew when I got the bike and lead out that was what was happening and he wanted to do it. He certainly did not think that he had to do it and could easily have refused to let me put the harness on.
- zaybqp 5y ago
  Why is my reply getting flagged? Nothing in my comment breaks any rule. This was my reply that got flagged: I am not debating anyone. I just pointed out an invalid and unreasonably negative criticism for what is a feel-good news story. Back to your point. Do we ask for consent from working dogs? Have you ever seen news about "heroic" rescue dogs? What is your point really? Is it that we need to stop employing animals? Do we need to stop using anthropomorphic terms? Do we need to establish a ministry of truth and speech to regulate that?
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  > If I was given total control over your life and made you work for me, would you be ok with that so long as, according to me, I treated you well enough? I doubt it. By definition, if you treat me well "enough", I'm already satisfied. That's a silly proposition.
  - lovemenot 5y ago
    You might be missing the unspoken alternative. You will be treated well, as long as you do my bidding. Otherwise all bets are off.
    - spywaregorilla 5y ago
      If your bidding isn't pleasant enough to keep me happy then you're not treating me well enough. The constraint, as defined, is on the master.
      - lovemenot 5y ago
        You have made a tautology. It's moot. Coercion isn't all about carrots.
  - jaas 5y ago
    I think you are missing the “according to me” (the person you are working for) part of the sentence. In this thought experiment, like the rat, you have no say in what constitutes being treated “well enough.”
- bugbuddy 5y ago
  You seem to be suggesting that working animals are forced labor. Does that include all the working dogs such as police, rescue, military, and comfort dogs? The opposite of heroic is cowardly and it perfectly describes people that try to silence opposing opinions.
dundarious 5y ago
I'm vegan and think treating animals as tools is unethical, but I somewhat agree, how is this different from the treatment of any beast of burden, or god forbid, livestock? It seems so condescending to criticize people in less technologically advanced countries for using beasts of burden or livestock. I'm not trying to shut down abstract debate or discussion on the issue of animal welfare/rights/liberation, but I do perceive a lack of context leading to condescending criticism of others living in tough circumstances where they literally can't trust the ground they stand on to not suddenly kill them.
CoastalCoder 5y ago
Not GP, but for me it's a matter of striving to reason clearly and correctly. I try to avoid slipping into pleasant error on any topic, because I don't want mental habits that let me do that with important topics.
- zaybqp 5y ago
  The error here is thinking that the rat is in danger when doing its job and that the word heroic cannot be used to describe non-human. From Webster, heroic: of a kind that is likely only to be undertaken to save a life. This rat's work has saved lives. So, we can call it heroic. It is not even anthropomorphic strictly speaking.

by zaybqp 5y ago

jaas 5y ago

I think this story about the rat and what it did is cool, it makes me happy, but I do agree with OP that the language of the story misrepresents the reality of the situation. If I was given total control over your life and made you work for me, would you be ok with that so long as, according to me, I treated you well enough? I doubt it. That isn’t the point though. This is not a debate about whether anyone thinks the rat is being treated well. The rat did not consent to this (because it can’t), so this is, factually, forced labor. I am ok with it in this situation, but let’s call it what it is and express gratitude for what the rat did to clean up human messes. Second, you can’t do something heroically if you either 1) don’t know what you are doing and what the risks are or 2) there are no risks. Take your pick, but either way it isn’t heroic. The rat did a great thing for us but hero is not the right word.

zaybqp 5y ago
I am not debating anyone. I just pointed out an invalid and unreasonably negative criticism for what is a feel-good news story. Back to your point. Do we ask for consent from working dogs? Have you ever seen news about "heroic" rescue dogs? What is your point really? Is it that we need to stop employing animals? Do we need to stop using anthropomorphic terms? Do we need to establish a ministry of truth and speech to regulate that? To quote Zoolander, I feel like I am taking crazy pills responding to these comments.
crooked-v 5y ago
> The rat did not consent to this (because it can’t), so this is, factually, forced labor. On the other hand, anyone who's owned an uncooperative dog will know that it's nigh-impossible to effectively train an animal who just doesn't feel like playing along.
- celticninja 5y ago
  And also a dog will do what you ask it because you ask it and it wants too help you. My husky used to pull me on my bike. He knew when I got the bike and lead out that was what was happening and he wanted to do it. He certainly did not think that he had to do it and could easily have refused to let me put the harness on.
zaybqp 5y ago
Why is my reply getting flagged? Nothing in my comment breaks any rule. This was my reply that got flagged: I am not debating anyone. I just pointed out an invalid and unreasonably negative criticism for what is a feel-good news story. Back to your point. Do we ask for consent from working dogs? Have you ever seen news about "heroic" rescue dogs? What is your point really? Is it that we need to stop employing animals? Do we need to stop using anthropomorphic terms? Do we need to establish a ministry of truth and speech to regulate that?
spywaregorilla 5y ago
> If I was given total control over your life and made you work for me, would you be ok with that so long as, according to me, I treated you well enough? I doubt it. By definition, if you treat me well "enough", I'm already satisfied. That's a silly proposition.
- lovemenot 5y ago
  You might be missing the unspoken alternative. You will be treated well, as long as you do my bidding. Otherwise all bets are off.
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    If your bidding isn't pleasant enough to keep me happy then you're not treating me well enough. The constraint, as defined, is on the master.
    - lovemenot 5y ago
      You have made a tautology. It's moot. Coercion isn't all about carrots.
- jaas 5y ago
  I think you are missing the “according to me” (the person you are working for) part of the sentence. In this thought experiment, like the rat, you have no say in what constitutes being treated “well enough.”
bugbuddy 5y ago
You seem to be suggesting that working animals are forced labor. Does that include all the working dogs such as police, rescue, military, and comfort dogs? The opposite of heroic is cowardly and it perfectly describes people that try to silence opposing opinions.

dundarious 5y ago

I'm vegan and think treating animals as tools is unethical, but I somewhat agree, how is this different from the treatment of any beast of burden, or god forbid, livestock? It seems so condescending to criticize people in less technologically advanced countries for using beasts of burden or livestock. I'm not trying to shut down abstract debate or discussion on the issue of animal welfare/rights/liberation, but I do perceive a lack of context leading to condescending criticism of others living in tough circumstances where they literally can't trust the ground they stand on to not suddenly kill them.

CoastalCoder 5y ago

Not GP, but for me it's a matter of striving to reason clearly and correctly. I try to avoid slipping into pleasant error on any topic, because I don't want mental habits that let me do that with important topics.

zaybqp 5y ago
The error here is thinking that the rat is in danger when doing its job and that the word heroic cannot be used to describe non-human. From Webster, heroic: of a kind that is likely only to be undertaken to save a life. This rat's work has saved lives. So, we can call it heroic. It is not even anthropomorphic strictly speaking.