5 ms·

Yes, if someone goes to /admin on your site and starts to mess around even if it's not password protected, that's a naughty thing and should be (and will be) pu

Yes, if someone goes to /admin on your site and starts to mess around even if it's not password protected, that's a naughty thing and should be (and will be) punished even if you should have known better and ensured that it's well protected. Just like stealing a car is a crime even if the owner left the key inside the car. Or burglarizing someone's home even if occupier has accidentally left the front door unlocked. Don't you agree?

jrockway 15y ago
What if someone stores their wallet in a public trashcan?
- tptacek 15y ago
  Then, like you, that person is trolling.
  - jrockway 15y ago
    I'm not trolling, I was merely adding another analogy to the OP's selective list of things-that-are-like-browsing-directories-on-a-website. Like my profile says: "I'm not trolling; I actually think that."
- willyt 15y ago
  If you find someones wallet in the street. Take the cash then give it back. If it can be proven you took the money, you can be charged with theft. The famous saying 'possession is 9/10ths of the law' relates to proving who's possession something is, not what your rights are once you have it.
- DrJokepu 15y ago
  The laws regarding found property greatly vary between countries. In some places, if you find something and you it's not possible to determine who the owner is, the founder can keep the found property. In other places, if you cannot determine the ownership of a found property, you have to hand it over to the police, otherwise you could be charged with theft. It's a complicated matter. However, generally, if you find, say for instance, a wallet in a public thrash can and you can determine the identity of the owner (because, for example, there is a driving license in it), you cannot keep it.
jbooth 15y ago
At some point the analogy breaks down.. what if I typo "admin" trying to get to another page? Or, more realistically, what about spiders? What if it's linked and a human clicks the link?
- tptacek 15y ago
  You cannot be charged for most crimes if you lack any criminal intent.
  - jbooth 15y ago
    Ok, sure, I'm just saying that the analogy breaks down. Now the debate is over intent, whereas it's nearly impossible to accidentally break and enter.
    - tptacek 15y ago
      I don't think the analogy breaks down. I think most of the people arguing here need to go re-read Wikipedia on mens rea vs. actus rea. Most of the counter-analogies seem to boil down to things like, "but then Google could one day decide nobody's authorized to visit WWW.GOOGLE.COM and half the US would become felons!"
      - jbooth 15y ago
        I think we're talking at different points, I was saying that we don't have like literal robots walking the streets who might accidentally wander into your house, and you can't misclick your way into sticking up a liquor store. Certainly if you have a whole set of willful misconduct associated with the act, like in this case, then it's illegal/wrong even if the page was wide open and prominently linked. I guess I was just saying that you couldn't just hold someone culpable for a hit in the access log like you could for being in the wrong kitchen. The bar to prove bad intent is higher.
        tptacek 15y ago

jrockway 15y ago

What if someone stores their wallet in a public trashcan?

tptacek 15y ago
Then, like you, that person is trolling.
- jrockway 15y ago
  I'm not trolling, I was merely adding another analogy to the OP's selective list of things-that-are-like-browsing-directories-on-a-website. Like my profile says: "I'm not trolling; I actually think that."
willyt 15y ago
If you find someones wallet in the street. Take the cash then give it back. If it can be proven you took the money, you can be charged with theft. The famous saying 'possession is 9/10ths of the law' relates to proving who's possession something is, not what your rights are once you have it.
DrJokepu 15y ago
The laws regarding found property greatly vary between countries. In some places, if you find something and you it's not possible to determine who the owner is, the founder can keep the found property. In other places, if you cannot determine the ownership of a found property, you have to hand it over to the police, otherwise you could be charged with theft. It's a complicated matter. However, generally, if you find, say for instance, a wallet in a public thrash can and you can determine the identity of the owner (because, for example, there is a driving license in it), you cannot keep it.

jbooth 15y ago

At some point the analogy breaks down.. what if I typo "admin" trying to get to another page? Or, more realistically, what about spiders? What if it's linked and a human clicks the link?

tptacek 15y ago
You cannot be charged for most crimes if you lack any criminal intent.
- jbooth 15y ago
  Ok, sure, I'm just saying that the analogy breaks down. Now the debate is over intent, whereas it's nearly impossible to accidentally break and enter.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    I don't think the analogy breaks down. I think most of the people arguing here need to go re-read Wikipedia on mens rea vs. actus rea. Most of the counter-analogies seem to boil down to things like, "but then Google could one day decide nobody's authorized to visit WWW.GOOGLE.COM and half the US would become felons!"
    - jbooth 15y ago
      I think we're talking at different points, I was saying that we don't have like literal robots walking the streets who might accidentally wander into your house, and you can't misclick your way into sticking up a liquor store. Certainly if you have a whole set of willful misconduct associated with the act, like in this case, then it's illegal/wrong even if the page was wide open and prominently linked. I guess I was just saying that you couldn't just hold someone culpable for a hit in the access log like you could for being in the wrong kitchen. The bar to prove bad intent is higher.
      - tptacek 15y ago