3 ms·

Why is having Terms Of Use 'censorship'? Like, Facebook isn't allowed to have rules on their own private property- which Trump voluntarily agreed to, in exchang

Why is having Terms Of Use 'censorship'? Like, Facebook isn't allowed to have rules on their own private property- which Trump voluntarily agreed to, in exchange for being allowed to use that property for free? Is a bar allowed to kick an obnoxious drunk out, or is that 'censorship' too? I don't think that suspending private property rights is a particularly great idea for society. If we're suspending private property rights now, to copy your last sentence, everyone cheers but they don't seem to realize this will happen to their private property in the future once the other side controls these tools

trempisacent 5y ago
The extent to which people and organisations should be permitted private property 'rights' always needs to be weighed up against the public good, and this is no exception.
- hash872 5y ago
  He was suspended for inciting a coup against a democratically elected government. Are coup attempts part of the public good?
  - slumdev 5y ago
    This is demonstrably false. There was no coup attempt, only a peaceful protest. The protestors were happy to remain outside. There's video evidence of Alex Jones using a megaphone to tell the protestors to walk around the building to the other side, specifically not to enter it. The protestors were allowed into the building by Capitol Police. The Capitol Police opened the doors for them and ushered them in, offering no resistance. There's video evidence of this as well. The only casualties were Ashli Babbitt, who was murdered by a still-unidentified member of Capitol staff, and those people who were assaulted by Capitol Police the following evening after the cameras were turned off.
    - matchbok 5y ago
      Wow, such delusion here. I guess broken doors and windows means peaceful now? Police officers getting stomped on? Pepper sprayed? Breaking glass and destroying offices? Do your research kid. I can only hope you are joking.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - trempisacent 5y ago
    It wasn't a coup attempt, it was a protest that became a riot. All this talk of a coup is really quite silly - you can't just break into the Capitol and then start running the country, somehow. If he did indeed incite a riot (and I personally think he likely did, to some extent), then that is a matter for the actual courts - not the kangaroo courts of the social media giants. The wider principle here isn't even about Trump really, it's about how much the power of online censorship has become concentrated into a handful of mostly unaccountable companies.
Caprinicus 5y ago
This is such an overly simplistic take. Depending on where you are in the country, you could easily suspend some combination of power, water, heat, road access, banking, or internet connectivity to individuals purely by restricting access to private property somewhere down the line. Simply accuse them of violating the terms of service. We collectively agree that is unacceptable, because those things are basic utilities. We’ve let only a half dozen websites more or less completely control the internet on the front and backend - far fewer than the number of utilities it would take to turn off someone’s electricity. That kind of power is not just a free speech issue, it’s a national security threat and it’s only being celebrated because it’s being wielded, for now, against people we don’t like. Imagine a future election where one candidate wants to classify social networks as utilities, and the other candidate wants to do nothing but set puppy orphanages on fire. Candidate 1 has her social media pages cancelled for nebulous violations to a labyrinthine TOS, and she loses the election - because that is how people are reached in the modern world.
- hash872 5y ago
  If you can't get banned for inciting a coup against a democratically elected government- can you get banned for anything? His conduct was arguably illegal. In your ideal world of free speech, is Islamic State allowed to post recruiting videos or call for generalized action? If not, is that 'censorship'? Can you openly call for violence? Can you post revenge porn? Can NAMBLA have a Facebook page and sign up underage members? The only overly simplistic take is imagining that the world's largest communications platform isn't allowed to have rules or a Terms Of Service. That's just incredibly naive- one can't realistically run a planetary scale (hell, even a small town-scale!) platform with no rules on speech. You seem to be advocating that rules themselves are impermissible. This is an unrealistic take, I'm sorry. I think that Facebook & others would be best served by having more explicit rules and an independent arbitration system- which they've begun with the Oversight Board- that can make common-law style precedent that gets expanded over time. In your example, the banned candidate can apply to be reinstated- hell that's the case right now, Facebook has lost every case brought to the Oversight Board other than the Trump one!
  - deleted 5y ago

trempisacent 5y ago

The extent to which people and organisations should be permitted private property 'rights' always needs to be weighed up against the public good, and this is no exception.

hash872 5y ago
He was suspended for inciting a coup against a democratically elected government. Are coup attempts part of the public good?
- slumdev 5y ago
  This is demonstrably false. There was no coup attempt, only a peaceful protest. The protestors were happy to remain outside. There's video evidence of Alex Jones using a megaphone to tell the protestors to walk around the building to the other side, specifically not to enter it. The protestors were allowed into the building by Capitol Police. The Capitol Police opened the doors for them and ushered them in, offering no resistance. There's video evidence of this as well. The only casualties were Ashli Babbitt, who was murdered by a still-unidentified member of Capitol staff, and those people who were assaulted by Capitol Police the following evening after the cameras were turned off.
  - matchbok 5y ago
    Wow, such delusion here. I guess broken doors and windows means peaceful now? Police officers getting stomped on? Pepper sprayed? Breaking glass and destroying offices? Do your research kid. I can only hope you are joking.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- trempisacent 5y ago
  It wasn't a coup attempt, it was a protest that became a riot. All this talk of a coup is really quite silly - you can't just break into the Capitol and then start running the country, somehow. If he did indeed incite a riot (and I personally think he likely did, to some extent), then that is a matter for the actual courts - not the kangaroo courts of the social media giants. The wider principle here isn't even about Trump really, it's about how much the power of online censorship has become concentrated into a handful of mostly unaccountable companies.

Caprinicus 5y ago

This is such an overly simplistic take. Depending on where you are in the country, you could easily suspend some combination of power, water, heat, road access, banking, or internet connectivity to individuals purely by restricting access to private property somewhere down the line. Simply accuse them of violating the terms of service. We collectively agree that is unacceptable, because those things are basic utilities. We’ve let only a half dozen websites more or less completely control the internet on the front and backend - far fewer than the number of utilities it would take to turn off someone’s electricity. That kind of power is not just a free speech issue, it’s a national security threat and it’s only being celebrated because it’s being wielded, for now, against people we don’t like. Imagine a future election where one candidate wants to classify social networks as utilities, and the other candidate wants to do nothing but set puppy orphanages on fire. Candidate 1 has her social media pages cancelled for nebulous violations to a labyrinthine TOS, and she loses the election - because that is how people are reached in the modern world.

hash872 5y ago
If you can't get banned for inciting a coup against a democratically elected government- can you get banned for anything? His conduct was arguably illegal. In your ideal world of free speech, is Islamic State allowed to post recruiting videos or call for generalized action? If not, is that 'censorship'? Can you openly call for violence? Can you post revenge porn? Can NAMBLA have a Facebook page and sign up underage members? The only overly simplistic take is imagining that the world's largest communications platform isn't allowed to have rules or a Terms Of Service. That's just incredibly naive- one can't realistically run a planetary scale (hell, even a small town-scale!) platform with no rules on speech. You seem to be advocating that rules themselves are impermissible. This is an unrealistic take, I'm sorry. I think that Facebook & others would be best served by having more explicit rules and an independent arbitration system- which they've begun with the Oversight Board- that can make common-law style precedent that gets expanded over time. In your example, the banned candidate can apply to be reinstated- hell that's the case right now, Facebook has lost every case brought to the Oversight Board other than the Trump one!
- deleted 5y ago