3 ms·

That's just wrong. So if I leave the door to my house unlocked and you walk in and take my stuff it wouldn't be stealing?

speckledjim 15y ago
Nothing was taken. It would be more like "I leave my front door open, and you walk in and take a photograph".
- dpark 15y ago
  That's also not legal. You can't simply walk into someone's house, regardless of whether it's locked. It's unlawful trespass, it's a gross violation of privacy (especially since you took a picture), and it may be legally deemed breaking and entering, burglary, or some other felony depending on jurisdiction. Also, I believe that the voicemail "hackers" also deleted some voicemails, and in that case something was indeed taken.
  - JoeAltmaier 15y ago
    I don't think the analogies are doing justice. Nobody's house, not even a virtual one, was involved. An open-to-the-public voicemail system was used. The 'victim' was sympathetic and folks reacted emotionally. Its not clear to me this was espionage, or even a misdemeanor.
    - dpark 15y ago
      You're still trying to link "unlocked" and "open to the public". The fact that you don't lock something does not mean that it's legally open for anyone to use/take/whatever. If your front door is unlocked, it's still a crime for me to enter. If you leave your voicemail unlocked, it's still a crime for me to access it.
      - speckledjim 15y ago
        So is it legal or illegal for you to access http://foo.com http://foo.com ? By your logic, just because I didn't password protect it, doesn't mean it's legal open for you to load in a browser.
        tptacek 15y ago
        That's not his logic at all.
        dpark 15y ago
        These comparisons are getting pretty tenuous, don't you think? If you run foo.com, and you open it to the public, then you have made the decision to allow the public to use it. You've got a DNS record that tells the world they're welcome to access your site. On the other hand, if I sit outside your house and use your open WiFi to scan for computers inside your house with open ports, I'm probably committing a crime. If you have not made your desktop machine public, my accessing it is almost certainly against your wishes.
      - JoeAltmaier 15y ago
        I'm thinking that voicemail is pretty public. Not as public as a web site, but more so than your desktop machine - after all, its available 24X7 from any phone in the universe. The difference is only expectation. Some folks have the expectation that voicemail is as private as, for instance, an answering machine. Which is clearly not the case if you are technically savvy, which I'm thinking a judge is not.
        dpark 15y ago
        To access my voicemail, you have to enter my pin. If I have not set a pin, there's still a default one. The way around this is to spoof my number (on a phone that uses pinless voicemail access) and pretend to be me. In no case is my voicemail public, either in practice or in intention. I'm not sure how you think an answering machine is different from voicemail. I can access my answering machine from any phone in the universe, too, or at least I could if this was still 1995. Voicemail is just an answering machine than handles a lot of telephone lines.
    - willyt 15y ago
      It wasn't open to the public. Her voicemails, my voicemails, your voicemails are in no sense published. In the Milly Dowler case, the PI raked through the bins of the dead girl's family a few days after she went missing to find leads on what her phone number was. Edit: bins == trash (sorry was thinking in anglicisms)
JoeAltmaier 15y ago
No, but if you don't lock up corporate secrets, or put passwords on computers, then it isn't industrial espionage when I walk off with a copy of same. This is why everybody carries cardkeys - not because they work very well (folks circumvent ours with a coathanger when they forget their badge) but because the act of having cardkeys makes taking stuff a crime.
- dpark 15y ago
  What exactly do you base that claim on? Can you cite some relevant law that says it's only a crime to steal trade secrets when the door was locked?
  - tptacek 15y ago
    Actually, in trade secret law, the measures you take to protect your secrets do come into play. I'm not sure they matter in a criminal case, though.
    - dpark 15y ago
      Fair enough. I'm not well-versed in trade secret law.

speckledjim 15y ago

Nothing was taken. It would be more like "I leave my front door open, and you walk in and take a photograph".

dpark 15y ago
That's also not legal. You can't simply walk into someone's house, regardless of whether it's locked. It's unlawful trespass, it's a gross violation of privacy (especially since you took a picture), and it may be legally deemed breaking and entering, burglary, or some other felony depending on jurisdiction. Also, I believe that the voicemail "hackers" also deleted some voicemails, and in that case something was indeed taken.
- JoeAltmaier 15y ago
  I don't think the analogies are doing justice. Nobody's house, not even a virtual one, was involved. An open-to-the-public voicemail system was used. The 'victim' was sympathetic and folks reacted emotionally. Its not clear to me this was espionage, or even a misdemeanor.
  - dpark 15y ago
    You're still trying to link "unlocked" and "open to the public". The fact that you don't lock something does not mean that it's legally open for anyone to use/take/whatever. If your front door is unlocked, it's still a crime for me to enter. If you leave your voicemail unlocked, it's still a crime for me to access it.
    - speckledjim 15y ago
      So is it legal or illegal for you to access http://foo.com http://foo.com ? By your logic, just because I didn't password protect it, doesn't mean it's legal open for you to load in a browser.
      - tptacek 15y ago
        That's not his logic at all.
      - dpark 15y ago
        These comparisons are getting pretty tenuous, don't you think? If you run foo.com, and you open it to the public, then you have made the decision to allow the public to use it. You've got a DNS record that tells the world they're welcome to access your site. On the other hand, if I sit outside your house and use your open WiFi to scan for computers inside your house with open ports, I'm probably committing a crime. If you have not made your desktop machine public, my accessing it is almost certainly against your wishes.
    - JoeAltmaier 15y ago
      I'm thinking that voicemail is pretty public. Not as public as a web site, but more so than your desktop machine - after all, its available 24X7 from any phone in the universe. The difference is only expectation. Some folks have the expectation that voicemail is as private as, for instance, an answering machine. Which is clearly not the case if you are technically savvy, which I'm thinking a judge is not.
      - dpark 15y ago
        To access my voicemail, you have to enter my pin. If I have not set a pin, there's still a default one. The way around this is to spoof my number (on a phone that uses pinless voicemail access) and pretend to be me. In no case is my voicemail public, either in practice or in intention. I'm not sure how you think an answering machine is different from voicemail. I can access my answering machine from any phone in the universe, too, or at least I could if this was still 1995. Voicemail is just an answering machine than handles a lot of telephone lines.
  - willyt 15y ago
    It wasn't open to the public. Her voicemails, my voicemails, your voicemails are in no sense published. In the Milly Dowler case, the PI raked through the bins of the dead girl's family a few days after she went missing to find leads on what her phone number was. Edit: bins == trash (sorry was thinking in anglicisms)

JoeAltmaier 15y ago

No, but if you don't lock up corporate secrets, or put passwords on computers, then it isn't industrial espionage when I walk off with a copy of same. This is why everybody carries cardkeys - not because they work very well (folks circumvent ours with a coathanger when they forget their badge) but because the act of having cardkeys makes taking stuff a crime.

dpark 15y ago
What exactly do you base that claim on? Can you cite some relevant law that says it's only a crime to steal trade secrets when the door was locked?
- tptacek 15y ago
  Actually, in trade secret law, the measures you take to protect your secrets do come into play. I'm not sure they matter in a criminal case, though.
  - dpark 15y ago
    Fair enough. I'm not well-versed in trade secret law.