4 ms·

The Wuhan wet market episode, in retrospect, was almost certainly a superspreading event rather than a patient zero situation. The virus's effects are so variab

by ridaj 5y ago

The Wuhan wet market episode, in retrospect, was almost certainly a superspreading event rather than a patient zero situation. The virus's effects are so variable from person to person (lots of asymptomatic carriers, people who just get a little cold, symptoms undistinguishable from the flu) that it was almost certainly already circulating in Wuhan unnoticed, until it became big enough to be hard not to notice. Consider for example what happened in the US, in Washington state at the beginning of the pandemic. The first local community transmissions were detected weeks after they had already started happening, even though there was already a relatively high degree of alertness. Without testing, it wouldn't have been detected at all until a similar superspreading event finally took place. The very fact that miners got sick a few years ago makes it also sound likely, based on Wuhan's history and based on the virus's characteristics, that bat-to-human transmission took place in similar circumstances as the miners' a few weeks or months before the Wuhan wet market event, had some low-key human-to-human transmission simmering in the community which people wrote off as the flu (at worse), until that one superspreading event.

40four 5y ago
Guys, a bit of a tangent if I may? This is not normally my lane, but I really wish we could get over this term ‘wet market’. From a western point of view if you really think about it, it’s derogatory, and likely based in racial paranoia. We’ve all heard this term time and time again in the media. But after looking into it more, it’s not really accurate. Just call it a market. Or a farmers market as we call them in America. There is nothing special or weird about the market in Wuhan that deserves the ‘wet’ moniker. You wouldn’t call your local farmers market a ‘wet’ market. It’s just something we all heard one time in the news and kept repeating it without much thought.
- foobiekr 5y ago
  What kind of farmer’s markets have you been to with live animals in poor health being slaughtered in place?
  - croes 5y ago
    Your comment confirms that it is a problematic term. I quote from the Oxford Dictionary: "wet market n. South-East Asian a market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce." There is no mention of animals in poor condition and on-the-spot slaughtering. That's your prejeduce.
    - foobiekr 5y ago
      Photos of the Wuhan market match my description.
  - 40four 5y ago
    This is exactly my point. What exactly makes you think this is the case? How do you know there are animals in 'poor health' there? Maybe the term itself isn't the problem, but the way it was used in American media, especially during the Trump administration. The term, and it's connotations were used in a way to disparage Chinese people. It has been used to suggest the reason we have this pandemic is because these 'inferior' people are eating bats and weird animals in their 'dirty' wet markets.
- coupdejarnac 5y ago
  Lol. I just asked my friend from Beijing sitting next to me if the term wet market is racist. Do a bit of research before engaging in ridiculous pearl clutching.
  - 40four 5y ago
    I don't think I made my point very clear. And don't assume I did no research before you offer nonconstructive insults. Let me clarify. Sure the term, in and of itself isn't racist. It's the way it was used in our media, and the negative connotations that were implied by it. Especially under the Trump administration. A good definition: "A wet market is an open marketplace with stalls of vegetables and other food items presented for sale. Many wet markets are found in China and the Philippines. The name is based on the fact that these informal market environments usually have wet floors. Shoppers tolerate sloppy floors and items piled on mats or boards as the foods sold at wet markets are known for their fresh quality and low price. The moisture is created by market workers regularly spraying the produce and floors with water." Now if that's the way it was presented to us in Western media, there would be no problem. But that's not how it was portrayed. They tried to make it sound like some horrific place. Some god awful disgusting place, where people are eating bats and other weird animals. And it's dirty, really dirty. "If only those dirty Chinese people weren't eating disgusting animals in their 'wet' market, we wouldn't have this pandemic!" How many times did we hear this repeated by people early on last year? And how many people still believe this depiction of the market? Probably a lot, even in this comment thread it was parroted. Meanwhile in the real world, that market isn't any different than most other markets in another country in the world.
    - coupdejarnac 5y ago
      There is no way anybody could have gleaned this explanation from your original post. And yeah, your original post did not indicate any prior research, so don't try to justify yourself ex post facto. The fact that you have to quote wikipedia indicates you've never been to one.
- ddeck 5y ago
  You wouldn't call your local farmers market a 'wet' market because it isn't. Wet market is the standard English term for a market that sells live animals, typically seafood. They are full of tanks and water filled buckets and polystyrene boxes etc., thus the "wet" adjective. There are 2 less than a mile from my home and I've never heard anyone use a different name for them. You'll find this term used by the HK (i.e. China) government, so I fail to understand how you came to the conclusion that it's based on racial paranoia: "As at October 2019, the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department ("FEHD") managed a total of 74 public markets, of which 35 were standalone wet markets and 39 contained both a wet market and cooked food centre." [1] In Cantonese, it's "濕貨街市", which is literally wet goods market/area. [1] https://www.legco.gov.hk/research-publications/english/essentials-2021ise07-management-of-public-markets.htm https://www.legco.gov.hk/research-publications/english/essen...
  - croes 5y ago
    "Farmers' markets may be indoors or outdoors and typically consist of booths, tables or stands where farmers sell their produce, live animals and plants, and sometimes prepared foods and beverages. Farmers' markets exist in many countries worldwide and reflect the local culture and economy. " "A wet market (also called a public market or a traditional market) is a marketplace selling fresh meat, fish, produce, and other perishable goods as distinguished from "dry markets" that sell durable goods such as fabric and electronics." Sounds like a farmers market is a kind of wet market.
  - 40four 5y ago
    Fair enough. I don't think I made my point exactly how I wanted on second though. Let me clarify. The term in and of itself is not racist. But the way it was used in American media, and the negative connotations that were fed to us along with it, are very problematic. The term 'wet market' has never really been used in the American lexicon. The first time the majority of Americans heard it was in regards to the pandemic. And it was instantly being using in a derogatory way. The media and day to day talk was filled with negative and inaccurate depictions of what these places really are. They were said to be dirty, filthy places, where people are eating bats and all kinds of weird animals. And if only those Chinese people weren't being filthy and eating weird 'dirty' animals in their 'wet' markets, we wouldn't have this pandemic! I can't tell you how many times I heard this lane of thought early on last year. And how many people still believe this to be the case? Probably a lot. Meanwhile, these places are just normal markets, where many people go to buy fresh meat, seafood & produce. And they spray water on the floors to wash them off (this by the way is my understanding of where the term 'wet' comes from, it doesn't have to be a seafood market). This was what I was really trying to say, it's not the term 'wet' itself, but the way it was introduced to an audience who was not familiar with he term.

by ridaj 5y ago

40four 5y ago

Guys, a bit of a tangent if I may? This is not normally my lane, but I really wish we could get over this term ‘wet market’. From a western point of view if you really think about it, it’s derogatory, and likely based in racial paranoia. We’ve all heard this term time and time again in the media. But after looking into it more, it’s not really accurate. Just call it a market. Or a farmers market as we call them in America. There is nothing special or weird about the market in Wuhan that deserves the ‘wet’ moniker. You wouldn’t call your local farmers market a ‘wet’ market. It’s just something we all heard one time in the news and kept repeating it without much thought.

foobiekr 5y ago
What kind of farmer’s markets have you been to with live animals in poor health being slaughtered in place?
- croes 5y ago
  Your comment confirms that it is a problematic term. I quote from the Oxford Dictionary: "wet market n. South-East Asian a market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce." There is no mention of animals in poor condition and on-the-spot slaughtering. That's your prejeduce.
  - foobiekr 5y ago
    Photos of the Wuhan market match my description.
- 40four 5y ago
  This is exactly my point. What exactly makes you think this is the case? How do you know there are animals in 'poor health' there? Maybe the term itself isn't the problem, but the way it was used in American media, especially during the Trump administration. The term, and it's connotations were used in a way to disparage Chinese people. It has been used to suggest the reason we have this pandemic is because these 'inferior' people are eating bats and weird animals in their 'dirty' wet markets.
coupdejarnac 5y ago
Lol. I just asked my friend from Beijing sitting next to me if the term wet market is racist. Do a bit of research before engaging in ridiculous pearl clutching.
- 40four 5y ago
  I don't think I made my point very clear. And don't assume I did no research before you offer nonconstructive insults. Let me clarify. Sure the term, in and of itself isn't racist. It's the way it was used in our media, and the negative connotations that were implied by it. Especially under the Trump administration. A good definition: "A wet market is an open marketplace with stalls of vegetables and other food items presented for sale. Many wet markets are found in China and the Philippines. The name is based on the fact that these informal market environments usually have wet floors. Shoppers tolerate sloppy floors and items piled on mats or boards as the foods sold at wet markets are known for their fresh quality and low price. The moisture is created by market workers regularly spraying the produce and floors with water." Now if that's the way it was presented to us in Western media, there would be no problem. But that's not how it was portrayed. They tried to make it sound like some horrific place. Some god awful disgusting place, where people are eating bats and other weird animals. And it's dirty, really dirty. "If only those dirty Chinese people weren't eating disgusting animals in their 'wet' market, we wouldn't have this pandemic!" How many times did we hear this repeated by people early on last year? And how many people still believe this depiction of the market? Probably a lot, even in this comment thread it was parroted. Meanwhile in the real world, that market isn't any different than most other markets in another country in the world.
  - coupdejarnac 5y ago
    There is no way anybody could have gleaned this explanation from your original post. And yeah, your original post did not indicate any prior research, so don't try to justify yourself ex post facto. The fact that you have to quote wikipedia indicates you've never been to one.
ddeck 5y ago
You wouldn't call your local farmers market a 'wet' market because it isn't. Wet market is the standard English term for a market that sells live animals, typically seafood. They are full of tanks and water filled buckets and polystyrene boxes etc., thus the "wet" adjective. There are 2 less than a mile from my home and I've never heard anyone use a different name for them. You'll find this term used by the HK (i.e. China) government, so I fail to understand how you came to the conclusion that it's based on racial paranoia: "As at October 2019, the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department ("FEHD") managed a total of 74 public markets, of which 35 were standalone wet markets and 39 contained both a wet market and cooked food centre." [1] In Cantonese, it's "濕貨街市", which is literally wet goods market/area. [1] https://www.legco.gov.hk/research-publications/english/essentials-2021ise07-management-of-public-markets.htm https://www.legco.gov.hk/research-publications/english/essen...
- croes 5y ago
  "Farmers' markets may be indoors or outdoors and typically consist of booths, tables or stands where farmers sell their produce, live animals and plants, and sometimes prepared foods and beverages. Farmers' markets exist in many countries worldwide and reflect the local culture and economy. " "A wet market (also called a public market or a traditional market) is a marketplace selling fresh meat, fish, produce, and other perishable goods as distinguished from "dry markets" that sell durable goods such as fabric and electronics." Sounds like a farmers market is a kind of wet market.
- 40four 5y ago
  Fair enough. I don't think I made my point exactly how I wanted on second though. Let me clarify. The term in and of itself is not racist. But the way it was used in American media, and the negative connotations that were fed to us along with it, are very problematic. The term 'wet market' has never really been used in the American lexicon. The first time the majority of Americans heard it was in regards to the pandemic. And it was instantly being using in a derogatory way. The media and day to day talk was filled with negative and inaccurate depictions of what these places really are. They were said to be dirty, filthy places, where people are eating bats and all kinds of weird animals. And if only those Chinese people weren't being filthy and eating weird 'dirty' animals in their 'wet' markets, we wouldn't have this pandemic! I can't tell you how many times I heard this lane of thought early on last year. And how many people still believe this to be the case? Probably a lot. Meanwhile, these places are just normal markets, where many people go to buy fresh meat, seafood & produce. And they spray water on the floors to wash them off (this by the way is my understanding of where the term 'wet' comes from, it doesn't have to be a seafood market). This was what I was really trying to say, it's not the term 'wet' itself, but the way it was introduced to an audience who was not familiar with he term.