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I'm not sure what your point is here. That the Wuhan lab shouldn't be called out for likely causing a global pandemic? It's being done in a very fair and non-ag

I'm not sure what your point is here. That the Wuhan lab shouldn't be called out for likely causing a global pandemic? It's being done in a very fair and non-aggressive manner. I don't really see what other approach could be said to take into account this stereotype more.

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henearkr 5y ago
To keep it simple: are there benefits of calling them out? Are you really just in search of scientific truth, and is this science useful in this context of present and maybe future crisis? My point is that actually it (the calling out) is done aggressively, and it was especially when Trump was president. And maybe China is afraid to be shamed and discredited on the international scene, which would delight geopolitical enemies like US, or having to repay colossal sums of money to the world. And thus they would be refusing even the possibility of a lab leak. If China was given a more relaxed treatment (but is it even possible? isn't the world out to find scapegoats and make them feel shame or get them to pay?), maybe they would have more willingly investigated the origins of the virus, even probably as a simple consequence of their other ongoing scientific investigations on covid. I may seem unduly focused on the concept of shame in this comment, but this is precisely why it is an Asian problem. It is not obvious for Westerners that shame or discredit would be that much important. The money problem only adds to it. But what's even more important here to figure out a solution, is that the investigations about the virus origin will likely not help at all to solve the crisis. Solutions are more in studying the variants, preventing the spread, and developping vaccines and antivirals.
- themacguffinman 5y ago
  Developing effective preventive solutions require that you understand the problem. If the problem is a lab leak, then policies that address insufficient lab safety standards are warranted. Frankly, the Chinese government should feel ashamed and discredited if it was a lab leak under its responsibility. Any US involvement in the lab leak should be investigated and uncovered as well. China would have no qualms pointing fingers at the US if the roles were reversed, and they'd be right to do so. Being sensitive to shame has never been a reasonable excuse for covering up the truth. Coddling China is not only unjust, it damages our ability to prevent this from happening again.
  - henearkr 5y ago
    This is also one thing that I dispute: knowing the origin will not make the world better, because a lab leak is theoretically impossible anyway, given the lab safety standards. So I doubt that knowing the leak would change the outcome in the future or prevent the mistakes. It is also highly plausible that China has already taken steps, internally. Like, the Wuhan lab is closed now. So, in the light of this fact, too, calling out China will not make them do more than they already did to address the issue. If the problem is the lack of enforcement of security (maybe because of deeper lingering problems, like the fact that local authorities are too much autonomous, behave like little tyrants themselves, etc), then adding even more security policy will not do anything. If the answer is to change the whole way China is administered, this will just not happen (unfortunately).
    - themacguffinman 5y ago
      > because a lab leak is theoretically impossible anyway, given the lab safety standards It's obviously not impossible because we're seeing evidence that it is possibly a lab leak, that's the whole point of the Vanity Fair article. This reasoning works backwards from a theory where a lab leak is "theoretically impossible" but obviously if a fair and impartial investigation revealed that it was a lab leak, then logically that theory is wrong. If theories about lab safety are wrong, that's very important information. > It is also highly plausible that China has already taken steps, internally. Like, the Wuhan lab is closed now. That doesn't help other labs overseas. Other countries also perform bio-research in labs and any safety discoveries can prevent similarly bad outcomes internationally as well. If a fair and impartial investigation reveals that foreign labs are susceptible to the same lab leak that caused this pandemic, that's really valuable and essential information in preventing the next pandemic. Whether or not the origin is a direct consequence of Chinese government carelessness or whether it's an accident that could happen to other labs or whether it's not a lab leak at all, we need to know the truth. > If the answer is to change the whole way China is administered, this will just not happen (unfortunately). Not with that attitude. If your only response to bullies and bad actors is absolutely nothing, of course they won't change, they have no reason to change. The international community should impose punishments for China's bad behavior and non-cooperation.

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henearkr 5y ago

To keep it simple: are there benefits of calling them out? Are you really just in search of scientific truth, and is this science useful in this context of present and maybe future crisis? My point is that actually it (the calling out) is done aggressively, and it was especially when Trump was president. And maybe China is afraid to be shamed and discredited on the international scene, which would delight geopolitical enemies like US, or having to repay colossal sums of money to the world. And thus they would be refusing even the possibility of a lab leak. If China was given a more relaxed treatment (but is it even possible? isn't the world out to find scapegoats and make them feel shame or get them to pay?), maybe they would have more willingly investigated the origins of the virus, even probably as a simple consequence of their other ongoing scientific investigations on covid. I may seem unduly focused on the concept of shame in this comment, but this is precisely why it is an Asian problem. It is not obvious for Westerners that shame or discredit would be that much important. The money problem only adds to it. But what's even more important here to figure out a solution, is that the investigations about the virus origin will likely not help at all to solve the crisis. Solutions are more in studying the variants, preventing the spread, and developping vaccines and antivirals.

themacguffinman 5y ago
Developing effective preventive solutions require that you understand the problem. If the problem is a lab leak, then policies that address insufficient lab safety standards are warranted. Frankly, the Chinese government should feel ashamed and discredited if it was a lab leak under its responsibility. Any US involvement in the lab leak should be investigated and uncovered as well. China would have no qualms pointing fingers at the US if the roles were reversed, and they'd be right to do so. Being sensitive to shame has never been a reasonable excuse for covering up the truth. Coddling China is not only unjust, it damages our ability to prevent this from happening again.
- henearkr 5y ago
  This is also one thing that I dispute: knowing the origin will not make the world better, because a lab leak is theoretically impossible anyway, given the lab safety standards. So I doubt that knowing the leak would change the outcome in the future or prevent the mistakes. It is also highly plausible that China has already taken steps, internally. Like, the Wuhan lab is closed now. So, in the light of this fact, too, calling out China will not make them do more than they already did to address the issue. If the problem is the lack of enforcement of security (maybe because of deeper lingering problems, like the fact that local authorities are too much autonomous, behave like little tyrants themselves, etc), then adding even more security policy will not do anything. If the answer is to change the whole way China is administered, this will just not happen (unfortunately).
  - themacguffinman 5y ago
    > because a lab leak is theoretically impossible anyway, given the lab safety standards It's obviously not impossible because we're seeing evidence that it is possibly a lab leak, that's the whole point of the Vanity Fair article. This reasoning works backwards from a theory where a lab leak is "theoretically impossible" but obviously if a fair and impartial investigation revealed that it was a lab leak, then logically that theory is wrong. If theories about lab safety are wrong, that's very important information. > It is also highly plausible that China has already taken steps, internally. Like, the Wuhan lab is closed now. That doesn't help other labs overseas. Other countries also perform bio-research in labs and any safety discoveries can prevent similarly bad outcomes internationally as well. If a fair and impartial investigation reveals that foreign labs are susceptible to the same lab leak that caused this pandemic, that's really valuable and essential information in preventing the next pandemic. Whether or not the origin is a direct consequence of Chinese government carelessness or whether it's an accident that could happen to other labs or whether it's not a lab leak at all, we need to know the truth. > If the answer is to change the whole way China is administered, this will just not happen (unfortunately). Not with that attitude. If your only response to bullies and bad actors is absolutely nothing, of course they won't change, they have no reason to change. The international community should impose punishments for China's bad behavior and non-cooperation.