3 ms·

This is a good article. There's been so much junk over the past couple of weeks or so that it's been very frustrating. I've mostly been watching the debate unfo

This is a good article. There's been so much junk over the past couple of weeks or so that it's been very frustrating. I've mostly been watching the debate unfold on Twitter, and it's confirmed for me that Twitter is a terrible place for real intellectually-curious discussion (probably social media in general). I've been wondering certain things, especially why Marc Lipsitch (one of the most consistently trustworthy voices throughout the pandemic) signed that Science letter, knowing that it would add weight to the "it's a lab leak" propaganda, and stood by the assertion that lab leak is plausible[1]. I hope we do get the true answers to these questions, though think it's not especially likely. I'll say a couple other things. For an audience of honestly intellectually curious people, the Trumpian right-wingers did enormous damage to their theory, even if it was correct, by being racist and scientifically willfully stupid. Similarly, the Chinese authorities, even if they were correct did enormous damage to their theory by being authoritarian and stifling real communication. But it is very easy to see why both sides acted as they did: these mythical honest intellectually curious people are a tiny fraction of the entire audience, and have relatively little power, so they were quite incentivized to act as they did. And, maybe a little too early to say for sure, but it probably worked. [1]: https://twitter.com/mlipsitch/status/1398455815959367683 https://twitter.com/mlipsitch/status/1398455815959367683

Cyberthal 5y ago
By being racist? The CCP is a party, not a race. Taiwan and Chinese dissidents deserve great credit for advancing the lab leak hypothesis, and are conspicuously absent from this article, probably because the CCP is extremely displeased whenever they are acknowledged. Forget race, these Taiwanese and mainlander dissidents are the same ethnicity as the CCP. Saying it's racist to criticize or discriminate against China mainlanders ignores the many people of the same race who hold such prejudices in Hong Kong, for example. Racism would be blaming Japanese or Koreans for COVID19, because they are the same racial group as the Han. Who does that? In theory, Americans could be aware that North America has always been a battleground between introgressions from northeast Asia and northwest Europe, and view the spread of COVID19 as parallel to the spread of smallpox to Indians via plague blankets. But I honestly don't think any meaningful number of "Trumpians" are that smart. Those Indians may have developed some racist conspiracy theories. I bet the Uyghurs have some too!
- chickenmonkey 5y ago
  The idea of a lab leak could either mean that legitimate research was happening on this virus and it got accidentally leaked, or that the virus was being prepared as a bio-weapon and was intentionally or unintentionally released. The reason I think those scientists disavowed the lab leak theory initially was to avoid confusion between whether COVID-19 was an intentional bio-attack by China as many believed then and was pushed by Trump.
  - Cyberthal 5y ago
    Oh, so the idea that it was an intentional bio-attack is what's "racist". Why? Xi and the top leadership of the CCP/PLA are not a race, they're an oligarchy, maybe monarchy. They receive many benefits from a pandemic, such as cover to crack down on rebellion in Hong Kong, a counter to Western propaganda for open societies, an excuse for economic recession. I've read that the PLA believes that plagues such as SARS and Swine Flu are actually US bioweapons. That would make COVID19 merely symmetrical retaliation. The PLA also believes the USA is fomenting dissent and rebellion in China's territory to divide her. This is casus belli. The US oligarchy cynically cornered Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor and ultimately nuked two Japanese cities while Japan tried to surrender. The USA also firebombed Dresden, a refugee city. Are these facts racist? If you insist that the idea of China making an unrestricted biowarfare attack is so unprovoked and irrational that the mere thought is motivated purely by racial bigotry, then guess what? If it turns out the PLA really is guilty, you have condemned China as the wholly evil side. Shall we declare a second Pearl Harbor and demand unconditional surrender? I certainly won't enlist for that war. I suspect China would happily leave the USA alone if the USA returned the favor. The Pacific is wide and deep.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
LudwigNagasena 5y ago
> For an audience of honestly intellectually curious people, the Trumpian right-wingers did enormous damage to their theory, even if it was correct, by being racist and scientifically willfully stupid. Similarly, the Chinese authorities, even if they were correct did enormous damage to their theory by being authoritarian and stifling real communication. Eh? And no mention of American urban blue check marks who are being racist, scientifically willfully stupid and who are stifling real communication?
lordloki 5y ago
The same media that was reporting on the lab leak being a conspiracy theory were the ones reporting that Trump and Trump supporters sided with the theory due to racism. There was no proof that racism was the reason, only that they referred to Covid19 as China Flu or Wuhan Flu. Both of which represent the origin and not a race.

Cyberthal 5y ago

By being racist? The CCP is a party, not a race. Taiwan and Chinese dissidents deserve great credit for advancing the lab leak hypothesis, and are conspicuously absent from this article, probably because the CCP is extremely displeased whenever they are acknowledged. Forget race, these Taiwanese and mainlander dissidents are the same ethnicity as the CCP. Saying it's racist to criticize or discriminate against China mainlanders ignores the many people of the same race who hold such prejudices in Hong Kong, for example. Racism would be blaming Japanese or Koreans for COVID19, because they are the same racial group as the Han. Who does that? In theory, Americans could be aware that North America has always been a battleground between introgressions from northeast Asia and northwest Europe, and view the spread of COVID19 as parallel to the spread of smallpox to Indians via plague blankets. But I honestly don't think any meaningful number of "Trumpians" are that smart. Those Indians may have developed some racist conspiracy theories. I bet the Uyghurs have some too!

chickenmonkey 5y ago
The idea of a lab leak could either mean that legitimate research was happening on this virus and it got accidentally leaked, or that the virus was being prepared as a bio-weapon and was intentionally or unintentionally released. The reason I think those scientists disavowed the lab leak theory initially was to avoid confusion between whether COVID-19 was an intentional bio-attack by China as many believed then and was pushed by Trump.
- Cyberthal 5y ago
  Oh, so the idea that it was an intentional bio-attack is what's "racist". Why? Xi and the top leadership of the CCP/PLA are not a race, they're an oligarchy, maybe monarchy. They receive many benefits from a pandemic, such as cover to crack down on rebellion in Hong Kong, a counter to Western propaganda for open societies, an excuse for economic recession. I've read that the PLA believes that plagues such as SARS and Swine Flu are actually US bioweapons. That would make COVID19 merely symmetrical retaliation. The PLA also believes the USA is fomenting dissent and rebellion in China's territory to divide her. This is casus belli. The US oligarchy cynically cornered Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor and ultimately nuked two Japanese cities while Japan tried to surrender. The USA also firebombed Dresden, a refugee city. Are these facts racist? If you insist that the idea of China making an unrestricted biowarfare attack is so unprovoked and irrational that the mere thought is motivated purely by racial bigotry, then guess what? If it turns out the PLA really is guilty, you have condemned China as the wholly evil side. Shall we declare a second Pearl Harbor and demand unconditional surrender? I certainly won't enlist for that war. I suspect China would happily leave the USA alone if the USA returned the favor. The Pacific is wide and deep.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

LudwigNagasena 5y ago

> For an audience of honestly intellectually curious people, the Trumpian right-wingers did enormous damage to their theory, even if it was correct, by being racist and scientifically willfully stupid. Similarly, the Chinese authorities, even if they were correct did enormous damage to their theory by being authoritarian and stifling real communication. Eh? And no mention of American urban blue check marks who are being racist, scientifically willfully stupid and who are stifling real communication?

lordloki 5y ago

The same media that was reporting on the lab leak being a conspiracy theory were the ones reporting that Trump and Trump supporters sided with the theory due to racism. There was no proof that racism was the reason, only that they referred to Covid19 as China Flu or Wuhan Flu. Both of which represent the origin and not a race.