4 ms·

I think the threat of a tomahawk missile entering your building is a pretty good incentive to not fuck with US infrastructure but that's just me.

_jal 5y ago
Except you can't do that, which is why the army metaphor doesn't work. (If you want to argue that this is a realistic response, please explain how doing so would not be acts of war, inviting both retaliation and much worse acts then justified by ours.)
- tkinom 5y ago
  Follow the $$$. If US government authorizes the NSA/CIA to infiltrate/attack all bitcoin exchanges that accept payments from wallet ID with ransomware, the problem likely be solved very quickly.
  - ryanlol 5y ago
    Not if the hackers use monero.
    - virtue3 5y ago
      at some point they have to turn monero into currency.
      - ryanlol 5y ago
        So what?
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  I mean, it can be argued that trying to damage our infrastructure by hacking our computers is just as much of an act of war as firing a missile at our infrastructure. In some cases, the effect of the damage is the same. (I admit the 'cleanup' of the Colonial Pipeline problem is much less than it would be if someone blew up the pipeline, but the impact it had on our country was similar.) I don't expect the US to start handling this that way any time soon, but I'm not sure it'd be irrational for a nation to decide a cyberattack is, in fact, an act of war.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    It really depends how that attack is being organized and backed though - in most cases we'll be left with only a strong suspicion of who actually launched the attack and, due to the nature of technology, it's much more likely with a cyber attack for the real perpetrators to frame someone else. Even once that's all decided, we'd need to figure out if war would be a reasonable response. I'd propose that one of the main reasons the US hasn't ever escalated the situation with North Korea, even if we ignore China's likely response, is that actually subduing the populace and occupying the country would likely be extremely difficult. It's unlikely that a thoroughly bombed North Korea would be any more stable and friendly than the current North Korea. War is extremely inefficient at bettering the lives in any of the countries involved - there are times when it is necessary, but it should be avoided whenever possible.
    - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
      > even if we ignore China's likely response China is literally the only reason the US tolerates North Korea. And China solely tolerates North Korea because it causes all sorts of irritation for the US. Arguably, it would be better off for everyone living in North Korea if one of those two powers annexed it outright, but geopolitics loves backwater proxy wars.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > China is literally the only reason the US tolerates North Korea. Closer to the active phase of the Korean War, the USSR was also a factor. Today, the US distaste for instability, and naiton-building, and North Korea not having a hoard of oil or something similar to overcome that distaste is also a reason, today.
        ocdtrekkie 5y ago
        > Today, the US distaste for instability, and nation-building This is an unpopular opinion, but I feel like we should generally accept nation-building doesn't work well, countries we leave tend to go back to being horrible in a number of years after we set up a new nation there. And accepting that, and accepting sometimes that countries are completely failed, harmful to world security, and larger countries need to intervene: Annexation isn't actually a bad concept. It's absolutely frowned upon today, but I'm not sure is worse than what we've done to half a dozen countries in the past couple decades alone. The barrier to war should be high, but at the point you obliterate a nation's governing structure, defenses, and likely civic infrastructure, you should accept you have a permanent responsibility for the civilians there. And maybe the best way to be democratic about it is to establish a process that states one annexes can petition and vote for secession after they've reached a more stable position. > North Korea not having a hoard of oil or something There's that. North Korea is a property that literally only Kim Jong Un wants. And major powers seem perfectly fine to let him have it as long as he mostlyish behaves.
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
This probably won't be viewed as an incentive until the US demonstrates any sort of willingness to employ this strategy.
vkou 5y ago
And the threat of a Topol-M nuclear missile with a yield of 800 KT detonating over New York is a pretty good incentive not to launch tomahawk missiles at office buildings located in nuclear-armed countries. If you ever wonder why unfriendly countries have nuclear ambitions, rhetoric like this is part of it. How many people are you ready to kill over ransomware? And weren't we just splitting hairs the other day over whether or not Belarus forcing an airplane flying over Belarus to land is excessive use of force? Apparently, ballistic missiles targeted at office buildings aren't?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- virtue3 5y ago
  At this point, with repeated attacks against our infrastructure, we need to get said countries to either help us route said cyber attacks (state sponsored or not). If this continues to happen we are looking at a really bleak future. There is an -insane- amount of money at stake here. How many meat/farm futures got affected by just taking out the meat industry this time? How much money can these people get not just by the ransomware attack, but by also knowing how fucked an industry is about to be and cashing out. When they can do this shit with impunity it's a problem. And there's potentially a lot of money available. This is all just ignoring the fact that some of this might be state sponsored. I think it's time to start getting some sort of cooperation from said nation states and allowing us to help take out some of their trash. Because the other option is to treat this like state sponsored attacks on our infrastructure and no one is going to like that.
  - stdgy 5y ago
    How do you get countries to cooperate that have no incentive to cooperate? Cyber warfare, whether ransomware or espionage, is largely asymmetric. Why would these other countries want to play ball when they have everything to gain? The answer tends to be that you make them cooperate by attaching additional costs to the actions, in order to make them less attractive. These costs come in two major forms, which we might want to categorize as passive and aggressive. Passive costs might include: - Sanctions - Investigation/Arrests Aggressive costs might include: - Offensive hacks - Military response The issue here seems to be that the passive responses aren't likely to be strong enough to dissuade the other actors, while the aggressive responses are too costly. Aggressive counter hacks might just normalize cyber hacking and espionage, and the US is on the wrong side of that asymmetric gamble. Normalizing the behavior would be likely to make it worse than it already is! Military responses go too far. You can't reaaalllly militarily respond to another nuclear power. Not directly. The potential outcomes there are almost uniformly bad. If you want to play the longer game maybe you do some poking and prodding by supporting third party combatants (IE: Soviet support of Vietnam against the Americans) or political opponents. But there aren't really that many great options on that front today for Russia or China. So that leaves trying to increase the cost of the passive responses. This is kind of troublesome with China, since they'll just throw identical costs right back at you. It's a bit more possible with Russia, but Europe's entanglement with their power sector screws everything up. And it's not like we're lacking on Russian sanctions as it is. You can try to play a strong defense, but that's kind of like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound at this point. Yadda yadda yaddad, I don't know what to do but I think it's an interesting problem! Edit: Maybe I shouldn't say European entanglement with Russian power sector. I suppose it's more appropriate to say gas sector?

_jal 5y ago

Except you can't do that, which is why the army metaphor doesn't work. (If you want to argue that this is a realistic response, please explain how doing so would not be acts of war, inviting both retaliation and much worse acts then justified by ours.)

tkinom 5y ago
Follow the $$$. If US government authorizes the NSA/CIA to infiltrate/attack all bitcoin exchanges that accept payments from wallet ID with ransomware, the problem likely be solved very quickly.
- ryanlol 5y ago
  Not if the hackers use monero.
  - virtue3 5y ago
    at some point they have to turn monero into currency.
    - ryanlol 5y ago
      So what?
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
I mean, it can be argued that trying to damage our infrastructure by hacking our computers is just as much of an act of war as firing a missile at our infrastructure. In some cases, the effect of the damage is the same. (I admit the 'cleanup' of the Colonial Pipeline problem is much less than it would be if someone blew up the pipeline, but the impact it had on our country was similar.) I don't expect the US to start handling this that way any time soon, but I'm not sure it'd be irrational for a nation to decide a cyberattack is, in fact, an act of war.
- munk-a 5y ago
  It really depends how that attack is being organized and backed though - in most cases we'll be left with only a strong suspicion of who actually launched the attack and, due to the nature of technology, it's much more likely with a cyber attack for the real perpetrators to frame someone else. Even once that's all decided, we'd need to figure out if war would be a reasonable response. I'd propose that one of the main reasons the US hasn't ever escalated the situation with North Korea, even if we ignore China's likely response, is that actually subduing the populace and occupying the country would likely be extremely difficult. It's unlikely that a thoroughly bombed North Korea would be any more stable and friendly than the current North Korea. War is extremely inefficient at bettering the lives in any of the countries involved - there are times when it is necessary, but it should be avoided whenever possible.
  - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
    > even if we ignore China's likely response China is literally the only reason the US tolerates North Korea. And China solely tolerates North Korea because it causes all sorts of irritation for the US. Arguably, it would be better off for everyone living in North Korea if one of those two powers annexed it outright, but geopolitics loves backwater proxy wars.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > China is literally the only reason the US tolerates North Korea. Closer to the active phase of the Korean War, the USSR was also a factor. Today, the US distaste for instability, and naiton-building, and North Korea not having a hoard of oil or something similar to overcome that distaste is also a reason, today.
      - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
        > Today, the US distaste for instability, and nation-building This is an unpopular opinion, but I feel like we should generally accept nation-building doesn't work well, countries we leave tend to go back to being horrible in a number of years after we set up a new nation there. And accepting that, and accepting sometimes that countries are completely failed, harmful to world security, and larger countries need to intervene: Annexation isn't actually a bad concept. It's absolutely frowned upon today, but I'm not sure is worse than what we've done to half a dozen countries in the past couple decades alone. The barrier to war should be high, but at the point you obliterate a nation's governing structure, defenses, and likely civic infrastructure, you should accept you have a permanent responsibility for the civilians there. And maybe the best way to be democratic about it is to establish a process that states one annexes can petition and vote for secession after they've reached a more stable position. > North Korea not having a hoard of oil or something There's that. North Korea is a property that literally only Kim Jong Un wants. And major powers seem perfectly fine to let him have it as long as he mostlyish behaves.

ocdtrekkie 5y ago

This probably won't be viewed as an incentive until the US demonstrates any sort of willingness to employ this strategy.

vkou 5y ago

And the threat of a Topol-M nuclear missile with a yield of 800 KT detonating over New York is a pretty good incentive not to launch tomahawk missiles at office buildings located in nuclear-armed countries. If you ever wonder why unfriendly countries have nuclear ambitions, rhetoric like this is part of it. How many people are you ready to kill over ransomware? And weren't we just splitting hairs the other day over whether or not Belarus forcing an airplane flying over Belarus to land is excessive use of force? Apparently, ballistic missiles targeted at office buildings aren't?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
virtue3 5y ago
At this point, with repeated attacks against our infrastructure, we need to get said countries to either help us route said cyber attacks (state sponsored or not). If this continues to happen we are looking at a really bleak future. There is an -insane- amount of money at stake here. How many meat/farm futures got affected by just taking out the meat industry this time? How much money can these people get not just by the ransomware attack, but by also knowing how fucked an industry is about to be and cashing out. When they can do this shit with impunity it's a problem. And there's potentially a lot of money available. This is all just ignoring the fact that some of this might be state sponsored. I think it's time to start getting some sort of cooperation from said nation states and allowing us to help take out some of their trash. Because the other option is to treat this like state sponsored attacks on our infrastructure and no one is going to like that.
- stdgy 5y ago
  How do you get countries to cooperate that have no incentive to cooperate? Cyber warfare, whether ransomware or espionage, is largely asymmetric. Why would these other countries want to play ball when they have everything to gain? The answer tends to be that you make them cooperate by attaching additional costs to the actions, in order to make them less attractive. These costs come in two major forms, which we might want to categorize as passive and aggressive. Passive costs might include: - Sanctions - Investigation/Arrests Aggressive costs might include: - Offensive hacks - Military response The issue here seems to be that the passive responses aren't likely to be strong enough to dissuade the other actors, while the aggressive responses are too costly. Aggressive counter hacks might just normalize cyber hacking and espionage, and the US is on the wrong side of that asymmetric gamble. Normalizing the behavior would be likely to make it worse than it already is! Military responses go too far. You can't reaaalllly militarily respond to another nuclear power. Not directly. The potential outcomes there are almost uniformly bad. If you want to play the longer game maybe you do some poking and prodding by supporting third party combatants (IE: Soviet support of Vietnam against the Americans) or political opponents. But there aren't really that many great options on that front today for Russia or China. So that leaves trying to increase the cost of the passive responses. This is kind of troublesome with China, since they'll just throw identical costs right back at you. It's a bit more possible with Russia, but Europe's entanglement with their power sector screws everything up. And it's not like we're lacking on Russian sanctions as it is. You can try to play a strong defense, but that's kind of like putting a bandaid on a gunshot wound at this point. Yadda yadda yaddad, I don't know what to do but I think it's an interesting problem! Edit: Maybe I shouldn't say European entanglement with Russian power sector. I suppose it's more appropriate to say gas sector?