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I think this is getting into semantic mismatch at this point, it seems like you and the above commenter agree pretty much in entirety at a conceptual level just

I think this is getting into semantic mismatch at this point, it seems like you and the above commenter agree pretty much in entirety at a conceptual level just using different terms. Your comment describes the meaning encapsulated in the term "positive discrimination". Groups have been disadvantaged throughout history, so the institution is deliberately assigning advantages for members of the group to offset that. > And even though the average SAT score is lower for BIPOC applicants, that average is not low enough for those people not to be able to handle the courseworks. This is not entirely true. Lower SAT scores are correlated with dropping out of certain majors at much higher rates. This is a significant factor in lower URM representation in STEM graduates: https://lawreviewblog.uchicago.edu/2020/10/30/aa-arcidiacono/ https://lawreviewblog.uchicago.edu/2020/10/30/aa-arcidiacono...

tylerhou 5y ago
> This is not entirely true. Lower SAT scores are correlated with dropping out of certain majors at much higher rates. This statement needs more careful examination for two reasons. First, students drop out for various reasons that are not academic, including personal reasons. It's possible that if you come from a lower-income family, your family circumstances change such that you can no longer attend school. Even those who dropout for academic reasons may have their academics affected by their personal life, and without personal difficulty they may have been able to handle the coursework. So such a finding would not contradict my claim that most people have the ability to handle the coursework. Second, because of Simpson's Paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox). When you aggregate all students, you may find that lower SAT scores correlate with high dropout rates, but that would also be consistent with a school environment that discriminates against BIPOC. (Just because the admissions environment attempts to compensate for discrimination by measuring "growth" doesn't mean that the schools themselves cannot exhibit elitism and/or racism.) Your article doesn't provide any data (so I have no evidence to support this), but it's possible that if you separated SAT scores out by race, the score has little to no effect on dropout rates.
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  The relationship between academic preparedness and persistence in STEM majors held true between White, Asian, Black, and Latin students. It also held true across class and income. A white, wealthy trust fund student with lower test scores is just as likely to change from a STEM major to another as a poor BIPOC student. In other words, a student with the same scores had the same likelihood of dropping out across any race. This is much more consistent with an academic testing system that accurately predicts academic ability. Is it possible that it's actually a predictor of who will predict later extenuating circumstances inhibiting their studies? And one that works with remarkable consistency across all demographics? Maybe but I feel confident enough in the former that I'm going to expect to see data on those circumstances to which you allude before shifting conclusions.
  - tylerhou 5y ago
    I going to need a citation for the claim in your first paragraph. I've skimmed through multiple papers (including the one you linked) and I have not seen an analysis of STEM dropout rates broken down by SAT scores and race. https://www.google.com/search?q=SAT+score+STEM+attrition+correlation+race https://www.google.com/search?q=SAT+score+STEM+attrition+cor... Also, such a paper should analyze dropout rates at elite colleges, as it's possible that the correlation degrades after a certain threshold.
    - Manuel_D 5y ago
      The paper was cited in the article: https://perma.cc/8M8L-GCUC https://perma.cc/8M8L-GCUC And yes, it is limited to an elite college (Duke University).
      - tylerhou 5y ago
        I don't think that paper says what you claim it says. From the conclusion: > However, even though we have shown substantial evidence that Duke does indeed possess private information about the student’s future performance, we cannot conclude that there is mismatch. It (claims to) disprove the hypothesis that there is no mismatch because Duke possess no private information, as private information is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for mismatch.

tylerhou 5y ago

> This is not entirely true. Lower SAT scores are correlated with dropping out of certain majors at much higher rates. This statement needs more careful examination for two reasons. First, students drop out for various reasons that are not academic, including personal reasons. It's possible that if you come from a lower-income family, your family circumstances change such that you can no longer attend school. Even those who dropout for academic reasons may have their academics affected by their personal life, and without personal difficulty they may have been able to handle the coursework. So such a finding would not contradict my claim that most people have the ability to handle the coursework. Second, because of Simpson's Paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox). When you aggregate all students, you may find that lower SAT scores correlate with high dropout rates, but that would also be consistent with a school environment that discriminates against BIPOC. (Just because the admissions environment attempts to compensate for discrimination by measuring "growth" doesn't mean that the schools themselves cannot exhibit elitism and/or racism.) Your article doesn't provide any data (so I have no evidence to support this), but it's possible that if you separated SAT scores out by race, the score has little to no effect on dropout rates.

Manuel_D 5y ago
The relationship between academic preparedness and persistence in STEM majors held true between White, Asian, Black, and Latin students. It also held true across class and income. A white, wealthy trust fund student with lower test scores is just as likely to change from a STEM major to another as a poor BIPOC student. In other words, a student with the same scores had the same likelihood of dropping out across any race. This is much more consistent with an academic testing system that accurately predicts academic ability. Is it possible that it's actually a predictor of who will predict later extenuating circumstances inhibiting their studies? And one that works with remarkable consistency across all demographics? Maybe but I feel confident enough in the former that I'm going to expect to see data on those circumstances to which you allude before shifting conclusions.
- tylerhou 5y ago
  I going to need a citation for the claim in your first paragraph. I've skimmed through multiple papers (including the one you linked) and I have not seen an analysis of STEM dropout rates broken down by SAT scores and race. https://www.google.com/search?q=SAT+score+STEM+attrition+correlation+race https://www.google.com/search?q=SAT+score+STEM+attrition+cor... Also, such a paper should analyze dropout rates at elite colleges, as it's possible that the correlation degrades after a certain threshold.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    The paper was cited in the article: https://perma.cc/8M8L-GCUC https://perma.cc/8M8L-GCUC And yes, it is limited to an elite college (Duke University).
    - tylerhou 5y ago
      I don't think that paper says what you claim it says. From the conclusion: > However, even though we have shown substantial evidence that Duke does indeed possess private information about the student’s future performance, we cannot conclude that there is mismatch. It (claims to) disprove the hypothesis that there is no mismatch because Duke possess no private information, as private information is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for mismatch.