4 ms·

In my opinion, much of the time "positive discrimination" is a misnomer. The most salient debate is in college admissions — some people believe that BIPOC have

In my opinion, much of the time "positive discrimination" is a misnomer. The most salient debate is in college admissions — some people believe that BIPOC have an "easier" time getting admitted to schools like Harvard with the same amount of "merit." ("Easier" and "merit" in quotes for reasons below.) Often, they justify this by claiming that Asian and white people have to score much higher on the SAT to gain admissions. But that's probably the wrong metric. The purpose of college is to grow students, which means a better metric of merit is not a snapshot of how proficient a student is at a particular moment in time, but by how much they have improved from some baseline. We also know that society puts BIPOC at a disadvantage because of their race. For example, historical and present day discrimination means that they have less economic power, which directly translates to educational disadvantage (worse schools, worse nutrition, less time interacting with parents who may work longer hours). BIPOC are also less likely to be recommended for gifted programs at the same level of skill. Therefore (because of society) their baseline is lower. So given the above two points, I don't really see admission of BIPOC as discrimination at if you shift the metric to "ability to grow." IMO this is also reflected in the admissions criteria; the ability to overcome adversity is sometimes cited, and adverse life events usually accompany some amount of growth. And even though the average SAT score is lower for BIPOC applicants, that average is not low enough for those people not to be able to handle the courseworks. That's not to say that all BIPOC applicants come from a lower baseline than all Asian/white applicants; of course there will be some distribution overlap. But using growth as a metric (instead of absolute score) could probably explain most of the test score/GPA discrepancy.

Manuel_D 5y ago
I think this is getting into semantic mismatch at this point, it seems like you and the above commenter agree pretty much in entirety at a conceptual level just using different terms. Your comment describes the meaning encapsulated in the term "positive discrimination". Groups have been disadvantaged throughout history, so the institution is deliberately assigning advantages for members of the group to offset that. > And even though the average SAT score is lower for BIPOC applicants, that average is not low enough for those people not to be able to handle the courseworks. This is not entirely true. Lower SAT scores are correlated with dropping out of certain majors at much higher rates. This is a significant factor in lower URM representation in STEM graduates: https://lawreviewblog.uchicago.edu/2020/10/30/aa-arcidiacono/ https://lawreviewblog.uchicago.edu/2020/10/30/aa-arcidiacono...
- tylerhou 5y ago
  > This is not entirely true. Lower SAT scores are correlated with dropping out of certain majors at much higher rates. This statement needs more careful examination for two reasons. First, students drop out for various reasons that are not academic, including personal reasons. It's possible that if you come from a lower-income family, your family circumstances change such that you can no longer attend school. Even those who dropout for academic reasons may have their academics affected by their personal life, and without personal difficulty they may have been able to handle the coursework. So such a finding would not contradict my claim that most people have the ability to handle the coursework. Second, because of Simpson's Paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox). When you aggregate all students, you may find that lower SAT scores correlate with high dropout rates, but that would also be consistent with a school environment that discriminates against BIPOC. (Just because the admissions environment attempts to compensate for discrimination by measuring "growth" doesn't mean that the schools themselves cannot exhibit elitism and/or racism.) Your article doesn't provide any data (so I have no evidence to support this), but it's possible that if you separated SAT scores out by race, the score has little to no effect on dropout rates.
  - Manuel_D 5y ago
    The relationship between academic preparedness and persistence in STEM majors held true between White, Asian, Black, and Latin students. It also held true across class and income. A white, wealthy trust fund student with lower test scores is just as likely to change from a STEM major to another as a poor BIPOC student. In other words, a student with the same scores had the same likelihood of dropping out across any race. This is much more consistent with an academic testing system that accurately predicts academic ability. Is it possible that it's actually a predictor of who will predict later extenuating circumstances inhibiting their studies? And one that works with remarkable consistency across all demographics? Maybe but I feel confident enough in the former that I'm going to expect to see data on those circumstances to which you allude before shifting conclusions.
    - tylerhou 5y ago

Manuel_D 5y ago

I think this is getting into semantic mismatch at this point, it seems like you and the above commenter agree pretty much in entirety at a conceptual level just using different terms. Your comment describes the meaning encapsulated in the term "positive discrimination". Groups have been disadvantaged throughout history, so the institution is deliberately assigning advantages for members of the group to offset that. > And even though the average SAT score is lower for BIPOC applicants, that average is not low enough for those people not to be able to handle the courseworks. This is not entirely true. Lower SAT scores are correlated with dropping out of certain majors at much higher rates. This is a significant factor in lower URM representation in STEM graduates: https://lawreviewblog.uchicago.edu/2020/10/30/aa-arcidiacono/ https://lawreviewblog.uchicago.edu/2020/10/30/aa-arcidiacono...

tylerhou 5y ago
> This is not entirely true. Lower SAT scores are correlated with dropping out of certain majors at much higher rates. This statement needs more careful examination for two reasons. First, students drop out for various reasons that are not academic, including personal reasons. It's possible that if you come from a lower-income family, your family circumstances change such that you can no longer attend school. Even those who dropout for academic reasons may have their academics affected by their personal life, and without personal difficulty they may have been able to handle the coursework. So such a finding would not contradict my claim that most people have the ability to handle the coursework. Second, because of Simpson's Paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox). When you aggregate all students, you may find that lower SAT scores correlate with high dropout rates, but that would also be consistent with a school environment that discriminates against BIPOC. (Just because the admissions environment attempts to compensate for discrimination by measuring "growth" doesn't mean that the schools themselves cannot exhibit elitism and/or racism.) Your article doesn't provide any data (so I have no evidence to support this), but it's possible that if you separated SAT scores out by race, the score has little to no effect on dropout rates.
- Manuel_D 5y ago
  The relationship between academic preparedness and persistence in STEM majors held true between White, Asian, Black, and Latin students. It also held true across class and income. A white, wealthy trust fund student with lower test scores is just as likely to change from a STEM major to another as a poor BIPOC student. In other words, a student with the same scores had the same likelihood of dropping out across any race. This is much more consistent with an academic testing system that accurately predicts academic ability. Is it possible that it's actually a predictor of who will predict later extenuating circumstances inhibiting their studies? And one that works with remarkable consistency across all demographics? Maybe but I feel confident enough in the former that I'm going to expect to see data on those circumstances to which you allude before shifting conclusions.
  - tylerhou 5y ago