4 ms·

While I agree in principle, a confounding factor is that "merit" has a high degree of subjectivity and bias. Diversity goals are meant to adjust for bias, not

While I agree in principle, a confounding factor is that "merit" has a high degree of subjectivity and bias. Diversity goals are meant to adjust for bias, not override merit. And it feels unfair, because bias is unconscious and we usually aren't aware of it. Unless you fully accept that you are a person with biases that are unconscious and invisible to yourself, it will feel like you're compromising on merit.

dvt 5y ago
> a confounding factor is that "merit" has a high degree of subjectivity and bias I'm not going to downvote you, but I really don't like this semantic maneuvering and I think it's disingenuous. By definition, merit is supposed to be free of bias and be the perfect correlate between qualification and result. If the argument is that humans are flawed and they sometimes don't reach this ideal because of prejudice or what-have-you, that's another discussion entirely. But no, merit does not have a high degree of subjectivity and bias associated with it.
- locopati 5y ago
  "merit does not have a high degree of subjectivity and bias associated with it." really? how does that explain the tendency for white men to fail upwards while women and minorities face a higher standard once hired?
- kjeetgill 5y ago
  I suspect the argument that you throw out as "another discussion entirely" is precisely what the poster sought to address.
BitwiseFool 5y ago
>"Unless you fully accept that you are a person with biases that are unconscious and invisible to yourself" I'm open to introspection, but at some point "bias" has to become something falsifiable. If it remains something unconscious and invisible, then how does one actually bear responsibility for it? In many ways your quote reminds me of Christianity. Simply replace the word 'bias' with 'sin'.
- ben_w 5y ago
  If the aggregate output of each stage of the hiring process varies depending on “is $protected_variable known?”, then there is a falsifiable bias due specifically to $protected_variable and not merit. Hiding $protected_variable can be difficult in in-person interviews, but should at least be possible for a CV, and when that has been tested, it has been observed. (Names imply race and gender, hide the names and get different aggregate results).
kypro 5y ago
"Diversity" is also subjective and bias. You think anyone cares that my family are immigrants lol? No, because they're from south Italy and not a few hundred miles further south. You think anyone cares that I was ruthlessly bullied for my sexuality in school? Nope because I now (perhaps stupidly) have chosen to identify myself as "straight". You think anyone cares about the fact I'm an INTP or have high functioning autism? Nope, because people who care about "diversity" don't tend to care much about what's on the inside. Embracing diversity isn't something I have much of a problem with, it's the way diversity it's defined which suggests attributes like race and gender are the defining characteristics of an individual that I have the problem with. I agree that bias is a problem when hiring, but I also think we go too far when we as a society suggest the primary reason for Asian over-represented in tech is racism, and then actively discriminate against Asians in hiring. I'd argue this line of reasoning is deeply flawed and immoral for numerous reasons.

dvt 5y ago

> a confounding factor is that "merit" has a high degree of subjectivity and bias I'm not going to downvote you, but I really don't like this semantic maneuvering and I think it's disingenuous. By definition, merit is supposed to be free of bias and be the perfect correlate between qualification and result. If the argument is that humans are flawed and they sometimes don't reach this ideal because of prejudice or what-have-you, that's another discussion entirely. But no, merit does not have a high degree of subjectivity and bias associated with it.

locopati 5y ago
"merit does not have a high degree of subjectivity and bias associated with it." really? how does that explain the tendency for white men to fail upwards while women and minorities face a higher standard once hired?
kjeetgill 5y ago
I suspect the argument that you throw out as "another discussion entirely" is precisely what the poster sought to address.

BitwiseFool 5y ago

>"Unless you fully accept that you are a person with biases that are unconscious and invisible to yourself" I'm open to introspection, but at some point "bias" has to become something falsifiable. If it remains something unconscious and invisible, then how does one actually bear responsibility for it? In many ways your quote reminds me of Christianity. Simply replace the word 'bias' with 'sin'.

ben_w 5y ago
If the aggregate output of each stage of the hiring process varies depending on “is $protected_variable known?”, then there is a falsifiable bias due specifically to $protected_variable and not merit. Hiding $protected_variable can be difficult in in-person interviews, but should at least be possible for a CV, and when that has been tested, it has been observed. (Names imply race and gender, hide the names and get different aggregate results).

kypro 5y ago

"Diversity" is also subjective and bias. You think anyone cares that my family are immigrants lol? No, because they're from south Italy and not a few hundred miles further south. You think anyone cares that I was ruthlessly bullied for my sexuality in school? Nope because I now (perhaps stupidly) have chosen to identify myself as "straight". You think anyone cares about the fact I'm an INTP or have high functioning autism? Nope, because people who care about "diversity" don't tend to care much about what's on the inside. Embracing diversity isn't something I have much of a problem with, it's the way diversity it's defined which suggests attributes like race and gender are the defining characteristics of an individual that I have the problem with. I agree that bias is a problem when hiring, but I also think we go too far when we as a society suggest the primary reason for Asian over-represented in tech is racism, and then actively discriminate against Asians in hiring. I'd argue this line of reasoning is deeply flawed and immoral for numerous reasons.