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The whole pushback against remote work is absolutely nuts. When the companies were staring at shutdowns and loss of revenue, everyone gladly accepted the idea t

The whole pushback against remote work is absolutely nuts. When the companies were staring at shutdowns and loss of revenue, everyone gladly accepted the idea that people can work from home. And contrary to the popular belief, productivity increased (our own CEO admitted at one point in an all hands). But the minute there was a sign things are opening up, there's a complete opposite viewpoint being pushed from the same people. I think there's a lot of different things going on here: 1. Control freaks are losing their minds in the Pandemic and they want some of the control back. 2. Extroverts are losing it and want things to be social again. 3. People who have bullshit jobs and absolutely don't add any value except look busy on "make work" are having a hard time justify their need in the company. 4. People who absolutely cant stand their families want to spend time away from them. And to all of these people I will say, go to the office if that's something you want, but don't make me go too.

mywittyname 5y ago
Just wait for the mass exodus. Remote work is turning out to be a requirement for hiring people. So once the company starts bleeding (good) people who find remote jobs with other companies, they are going to be difficult/impossible to replace. At some point, the execs will have to suck it up and offer remote work.
- pinkybanana 5y ago
  If remote work is a winning concept on the market, why we needed coronavirus crisis for it to get adopted? Are markets not working?
  - luxpir 5y ago
    Markets are not optimized for quality of life. It's one variable of many in a system evolved to coerce the many to benefit the few.
  - machinebun 5y ago
    > Markets are not optimized for quality of life. It's one variable of many in a system evolved to coerce the many to benefit the few. You need enough buy in from enough companies to actually have a competitive market for remote work. I think things were moving in that direction but slowly (as things tend to do) - COVID just accelerated the trend.
  - pochamago 5y ago
    Inertia, perhaps. We certainly have been seeing reports of digital nomads growing over the last decade, but major shocks can be useful in speeding up transitions. Likely very few CEOs previously imagined how robust the remote work infrastructure had become, and certainly didn't have obvious incentive to implement all the tools until now.
- brnt 5y ago
  I hear Dublin is already draining and the real estate market folding. The latter a very good thing for non-expats of course.
  - ishjoh 5y ago
    I found this as a source: https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Ireland/Home-Price-Trends https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Ireland/Home-Pric... Adjusted for inflation it does look like it was down a bit during last year, but Q1 there seems to be a rise again. What's interesting is that it looks like the Dublin prices have seen a wild 10 years of volatility.
  - entropyie 5y ago
    Nope, maybe a 2% drop in prices from the peak, rent still crazy expensive and not falling, once the government remove rent freezes, it will go up again. Anecdotally a few non Irish techies are leaving but it won't be enough to affect house prices and there are 10k people waiting to buy behind them.
- bitcuration 5y ago
  No they won't. The very reason of the management chain is manage people, in arm distance, not remotely. The execs understand this best kept secret better than anyone else.
Fordec 5y ago
On point 4, I think this is where co-working spaces have a moment to shine. A fully remote environment that you still get to leave the house to go to and no impact on how the rest of the team live their lives.
- ItsMonkk 5y ago
  College was by far the best time in my life because of the environment of campus, even with the pitiful dorm room sizing and sub-average dining options. If I could move to a campus - perhaps that was focused on people in their thirties - where people from many companies would go to work remotely and live, that would be an absolute game-changer for me.
  - djs55 5y ago
    I feel exactly the same way. College had just the right amount of private space, lots of shared spaces for social occasions / group working and a maintenance department to look after all the tedious domestic repairs. Bliss
- itronitron 5y ago
  I think it really comes down to urban planning and the burden of most people's commutes. Worth noting that from my experience the interpersonal negativity index of my previous work environments is highly correlated with longer commute times and larger city size. If I were running a large company I would create many small satellite offices around the metro area that employees could sign up to work from. Might even be worth purchasing a few large RVs and renting space and power hookups in good locations while figuring out employee preferences.
cmuguythrow 5y ago
Just want to provide a counter-story to your anecdote. Many of my colleagues are excited to go back to the office to increase collaboration and work satisfaction. Personally, wfh is really difficult for me and I can't wait to get back in the office. Working from home feels like grinding away at an endless list of tasks and waiting for the day to be over. Working at an office feels like playing a sport with a team - every day is significantly more enjoyable and satisfying. Granted: I am a young, single person working in design/product and my job requires a ton of collaboration. I don't really consider myself an extrovert FWIW
- ghaff 5y ago
  I've been effectively remote (albeit with a lot of work travel) for a number of years now and won't ever return to an office. That said, and appreciating that it's a different world from a few decades ago in terms of comms and so forth, it feels to me that coming out of school and shortly thereafter and being in this situation would have been extremely difficult.
- andy_ppp 5y ago
  Personally I think being junior is so so difficult to do remotely. It must be insanely hard to get things done and have the confidence to organise people who are more senior than you to have those random conversations and exploration meetings that make a product worthwhile (and that you can learn from). It is possible but you need to manufacture the spontaneity if you see what I mean. Most of the people who love WFH seem to be very advanced in their careers.
- tobr 5y ago
  But this is just a reason why you should go back to the office, not why someone who feels differently should.
- bitcuration 5y ago
  Oh, those Extroverts. They don't understand what working means except it brings them social joy.
bluedino 5y ago
>> productivity increased Did it, though? GDP has just reached pre-pandemic levels.
- Fordec 5y ago
  The economy is not 100% office work. Worker productivity is not measured in GDP. It is a component of it, but asset and resource prices also factor into the equation. Nobody is going to suggest taxi drivers can go fully remote and work from home, yet that still feeds into GDP.
- umeshunni 5y ago
  GDP is at pre pandemic levels now with sizable sections of the economy (travel, restaurants etc) still operating well below capacity.
aseerdbnarng 5y ago
Yes to all of this. My personal feeling is WFH is a threat to those who actors who need the office as a place to be seen.
- lamontcg 5y ago
  The existing managers all got where they are now by navigating the office environment.
- bitcuration 5y ago
  A best kept secret finally got exposed thanks to the prolonged pandemic related wfh, an unprecedented awakening.
jq-r 5y ago
And your last sentence says it all. Somehow all these people want/require everyone else to come back to the office which is just unfair.
phkahler 5y ago
The problem with fully remote work is that once you accept that a job can be done from anywhere, you have to compete on a global level. It can be done from India, China, Pakistan, or any other place where they have smart people willing to work for less than you! So don't get too excited about it ;-)
- narrator 5y ago
  This is why it's good to be a lawyer. It's one of the last remaining guilds of knowledge workers with any power. It's literally illegal to have someone from wherever do certain tasks if they are not properly licensed.
  - dred_prte_rbrts 5y ago
    I would point you at board certified doctors.
    - narrator 5y ago
      Their work isn't remote though.
  - ferdowsi 5y ago
    Plenty of typical lawyer work is ripe for automation.
  - pinkybanana 5y ago
    Lawyers do a lot of work where their licence is not really needed.
  - sxp 5y ago
    It's not /that/ good. Due to the high supply of lawyers, the compensation is heavily bimodal: https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/ https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/
  - ishjoh 5y ago
    There are Indian universities that specialize in US law and train their students in US law. Law firms that have those lawyers work overnight on items that in the past were given to new grads. Experienced lawyers then review those documents, fix any issues, and put their signature on the document. You could argue that there still has to be a US lawyer in the loop, but that's still true of software projects as well, that there is one Sr. software person overseeing the outsourced team.
pinkybanana 5y ago
> 4. People who absolutely cant stand their families want to spend time away from them. I don't think this is fair characterisation. If you have kids, working from home can be quite stressful. > And to all of these people I will say, go to the office if that's something you want, but don't make me go too. Generally almost no one gives a shit if you work from home or not. The only one caring about that is your employer, and you should negotiate with your employer about that. No need to complain about everyone and everything if you can't find an employer willing to let you work remote.
drewcoo 5y ago
5. People who don't want to compete with a global pool of workers Those initial waves of offshoring were nothing compared with what COVID did. Wait until this affects labor prices.
- sneak 5y ago
  Labor prices are up y/y for four straight quarters in the USA, with no signs of slowing down.
bitcuration 5y ago
Spot on. The management is having an existential crisis when butts are not in seats and everything appeared to work just fine.

mywittyname 5y ago

Just wait for the mass exodus. Remote work is turning out to be a requirement for hiring people. So once the company starts bleeding (good) people who find remote jobs with other companies, they are going to be difficult/impossible to replace. At some point, the execs will have to suck it up and offer remote work.

pinkybanana 5y ago
If remote work is a winning concept on the market, why we needed coronavirus crisis for it to get adopted? Are markets not working?
- luxpir 5y ago
  Markets are not optimized for quality of life. It's one variable of many in a system evolved to coerce the many to benefit the few.
- machinebun 5y ago
  > Markets are not optimized for quality of life. It's one variable of many in a system evolved to coerce the many to benefit the few. You need enough buy in from enough companies to actually have a competitive market for remote work. I think things were moving in that direction but slowly (as things tend to do) - COVID just accelerated the trend.
- pochamago 5y ago
  Inertia, perhaps. We certainly have been seeing reports of digital nomads growing over the last decade, but major shocks can be useful in speeding up transitions. Likely very few CEOs previously imagined how robust the remote work infrastructure had become, and certainly didn't have obvious incentive to implement all the tools until now.
brnt 5y ago
I hear Dublin is already draining and the real estate market folding. The latter a very good thing for non-expats of course.
- ishjoh 5y ago
  I found this as a source: https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Ireland/Home-Price-Trends https://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/Ireland/Home-Pric... Adjusted for inflation it does look like it was down a bit during last year, but Q1 there seems to be a rise again. What's interesting is that it looks like the Dublin prices have seen a wild 10 years of volatility.
- entropyie 5y ago
  Nope, maybe a 2% drop in prices from the peak, rent still crazy expensive and not falling, once the government remove rent freezes, it will go up again. Anecdotally a few non Irish techies are leaving but it won't be enough to affect house prices and there are 10k people waiting to buy behind them.
bitcuration 5y ago
No they won't. The very reason of the management chain is manage people, in arm distance, not remotely. The execs understand this best kept secret better than anyone else.

Fordec 5y ago

On point 4, I think this is where co-working spaces have a moment to shine. A fully remote environment that you still get to leave the house to go to and no impact on how the rest of the team live their lives.

ItsMonkk 5y ago
College was by far the best time in my life because of the environment of campus, even with the pitiful dorm room sizing and sub-average dining options. If I could move to a campus - perhaps that was focused on people in their thirties - where people from many companies would go to work remotely and live, that would be an absolute game-changer for me.
- djs55 5y ago
  I feel exactly the same way. College had just the right amount of private space, lots of shared spaces for social occasions / group working and a maintenance department to look after all the tedious domestic repairs. Bliss
itronitron 5y ago
I think it really comes down to urban planning and the burden of most people's commutes. Worth noting that from my experience the interpersonal negativity index of my previous work environments is highly correlated with longer commute times and larger city size. If I were running a large company I would create many small satellite offices around the metro area that employees could sign up to work from. Might even be worth purchasing a few large RVs and renting space and power hookups in good locations while figuring out employee preferences.

cmuguythrow 5y ago

Just want to provide a counter-story to your anecdote. Many of my colleagues are excited to go back to the office to increase collaboration and work satisfaction. Personally, wfh is really difficult for me and I can't wait to get back in the office. Working from home feels like grinding away at an endless list of tasks and waiting for the day to be over. Working at an office feels like playing a sport with a team - every day is significantly more enjoyable and satisfying. Granted: I am a young, single person working in design/product and my job requires a ton of collaboration. I don't really consider myself an extrovert FWIW

ghaff 5y ago
I've been effectively remote (albeit with a lot of work travel) for a number of years now and won't ever return to an office. That said, and appreciating that it's a different world from a few decades ago in terms of comms and so forth, it feels to me that coming out of school and shortly thereafter and being in this situation would have been extremely difficult.
andy_ppp 5y ago
Personally I think being junior is so so difficult to do remotely. It must be insanely hard to get things done and have the confidence to organise people who are more senior than you to have those random conversations and exploration meetings that make a product worthwhile (and that you can learn from). It is possible but you need to manufacture the spontaneity if you see what I mean. Most of the people who love WFH seem to be very advanced in their careers.
tobr 5y ago
But this is just a reason why you should go back to the office, not why someone who feels differently should.
bitcuration 5y ago
Oh, those Extroverts. They don't understand what working means except it brings them social joy.

bluedino 5y ago

>> productivity increased Did it, though? GDP has just reached pre-pandemic levels.

Fordec 5y ago
The economy is not 100% office work. Worker productivity is not measured in GDP. It is a component of it, but asset and resource prices also factor into the equation. Nobody is going to suggest taxi drivers can go fully remote and work from home, yet that still feeds into GDP.
umeshunni 5y ago
GDP is at pre pandemic levels now with sizable sections of the economy (travel, restaurants etc) still operating well below capacity.

aseerdbnarng 5y ago

Yes to all of this. My personal feeling is WFH is a threat to those who actors who need the office as a place to be seen.

lamontcg 5y ago
The existing managers all got where they are now by navigating the office environment.
bitcuration 5y ago
A best kept secret finally got exposed thanks to the prolonged pandemic related wfh, an unprecedented awakening.

jq-r 5y ago

And your last sentence says it all. Somehow all these people want/require everyone else to come back to the office which is just unfair.

phkahler 5y ago

The problem with fully remote work is that once you accept that a job can be done from anywhere, you have to compete on a global level. It can be done from India, China, Pakistan, or any other place where they have smart people willing to work for less than you! So don't get too excited about it ;-)

narrator 5y ago
This is why it's good to be a lawyer. It's one of the last remaining guilds of knowledge workers with any power. It's literally illegal to have someone from wherever do certain tasks if they are not properly licensed.
- dred_prte_rbrts 5y ago
  I would point you at board certified doctors.
  - narrator 5y ago
    Their work isn't remote though.
- ferdowsi 5y ago
  Plenty of typical lawyer work is ripe for automation.
- pinkybanana 5y ago
  Lawyers do a lot of work where their licence is not really needed.
- sxp 5y ago
  It's not /that/ good. Due to the high supply of lawyers, the compensation is heavily bimodal: https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/ https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/
- ishjoh 5y ago
  There are Indian universities that specialize in US law and train their students in US law. Law firms that have those lawyers work overnight on items that in the past were given to new grads. Experienced lawyers then review those documents, fix any issues, and put their signature on the document. You could argue that there still has to be a US lawyer in the loop, but that's still true of software projects as well, that there is one Sr. software person overseeing the outsourced team.

pinkybanana 5y ago

> 4. People who absolutely cant stand their families want to spend time away from them. I don't think this is fair characterisation. If you have kids, working from home can be quite stressful. > And to all of these people I will say, go to the office if that's something you want, but don't make me go too. Generally almost no one gives a shit if you work from home or not. The only one caring about that is your employer, and you should negotiate with your employer about that. No need to complain about everyone and everything if you can't find an employer willing to let you work remote.

drewcoo 5y ago

5. People who don't want to compete with a global pool of workers Those initial waves of offshoring were nothing compared with what COVID did. Wait until this affects labor prices.

sneak 5y ago
Labor prices are up y/y for four straight quarters in the USA, with no signs of slowing down.

bitcuration 5y ago

Spot on. The management is having an existential crisis when butts are not in seats and everything appeared to work just fine.