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I don't disagree with you. When I was in school (and still now, really) if there wasn't a dragon or a spaceship on the cover, I wasn't interested in it. I remem

I don't disagree with you. When I was in school (and still now, really) if there wasn't a dragon or a spaceship on the cover, I wasn't interested in it. I remember more about Where the Red Fern Grows, but not much (a kid gets mail order dogs to hunt with and (spoilers) the dogs die ... because the dogs always die). The only thing I remember about Silas Marner is that he buried his money and it was stolen (not a spoiler, that's like chapter 1). Something to know about English classes in particular (but also History and other liberal arts/non-science classes) is that isn't not about "the books", but critical thinking and discussion. In fact, it's likely that the mandated standards don't specify specific books to read. It turns out, though, that in a class of 30+ kids, it's easiest (or even possible) to have a critical discussion if everyone reads the same books at the same time. Also, if the kids think they are being "taught the book" but the teacher is trying to teach "literary literacy" using "the book" as an example, that's when you get arguments like "I didn't learn anything!" and "This is a waste of my time!" and "This other book is better!". Those arguments are besides the point. You should have been talking about why the author made the literary decisions they made, what were the themes? Whose point of view was it told from? How was the book impactful (or not)? These are the standards in Texas. Other states should have this information publicly available and I assume they will be very similar. https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/ch110c.pdf https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/ch110c.pdf For English II these are the skills a student should learn (notice no specific books are mentioned, but "traditional", "contemporary", "classical", and "diverse" are used to describe the books) - The student develops oral language through listening, speaking, and discussion - The student uses newly acquired vocabulary expressively - The student reads grade-appropriate texts independently. - The student is expected to self-select text and read independently for a sustained period of time. - The student uses metacognitive skills to both develop and deepen comprehension of increasingly complex texts - The student responds to an increasingly challenging variety of sources that are read, heard, or viewed - The student recognizes and analyzes literary elements within and across increasingly complex traditional, contemporary, classical, and diverse literary texts - The student recognizes and analyzes genre-specific characteristics, structures, and purposes within and across increasingly complex traditional, contemporary, classical, and diverse texts - The student uses critical inquiry to analyze the authors' choices and how they influence and communicate meaning within a variety of texts. - The student analyzes and applies author's craft purposefully in order to develop his or her own products and performances. - The student uses the writing process recursively to compose multiple texts that are legible and use appropriate conventions - The student uses genre characteristics and craft to compose multiple texts that are meaningful - The student engages in both short-term and sustained recursive inquiry processes for a variety of purposes Much like learning a foreign language is about more than learning vocabulary, but you can't learn how to talk in a restaurant if you don't know the restaurant related vocabulary. English class is about more than reading books, but you can't have those discussions if you haven't read the books. Or, it would be much more difficult to effectively "analyze literary elements" in a classroom setting with 30 kids that all ready 30 different books. Sure, teachers can be better or worse (or very, very bad) at teaching the material, or conveying what is being taught. But if you view English class as equivalent to "sitting under a tree and reading a book" (that was another commenter's words, not yours) then you're missing the forest for the tree and it won't matter how good the teacher is, you will be fighting them the whole way (which is maybe your point about not being able to challenge someone that doesn't want to be challenged)

harrisonjackson 5y ago
And as far as book selection goes... no one is getting fired for picking Where the Red Fern Grows - but watch out if you go the sci-fi/fantasy route. There are parents that will throw an absolute fit if a school had their kids reading anything with magic.
- mumblemumble 5y ago
  And yet nobody seems to complain about Homer, which not only includes magic, but also active worship of, and interaction with, pagan deities. How much of it is what the parents are saying it is, and how much of it is really motivated by a tacit belief that school is only legitimate when it's stodgy?
lostcolony 5y ago
I'm talking like second and third grades. Where the teacher literally was reading -to- us. We had copies of the book, we could follow along if we knew how and wanted to, but it most definitely was NOT trying to teach us literary criticism.
- hdctambien 5y ago
  I think you'd be surprised at what they were trying to teach you. At least in Texas the 3rd grade standards are pretty much the same as the High School standards (for values of "complex" adjusted for grade level) https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/ch110a.pdf https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/ch110a.pdf - The student uses metacognitive skills to both develop and deepen comprehension of increasingly complex texts - The student recognizes and analyzes literary elements within and across increasingly complex traditional, contemporary, classical, and diverse literary texts - The student recognizes and analyzes genre-specific characteristics, structures, and purposes within and across increasingly complex traditional, contemporary, classical, and diverse texts - The student uses critical inquiry to analyze the authors' choices and how they influence and communicate meaning within a variety of texts. - The student analyzes and applies author's craft purposefully in order to develop his or her own products and performances What 3rd grade you thought you were supposed to be learning and what the teacher was actually trying to teach you were not necessarily lined up. Or, you went to a school with a particularly poor English department that just had you write book reports for books you didn't read for no reason other than that's what they always did. That's actually more likely than not. I was a very, very bad math teacher at my first school (I was basically "playing school" and acting like I remembered my math teachers acted.. I had a CS/Math major, not an Education major. I knew the content, but not the pedagogy). The next school I taught at had structures in place that helped me understand what the actual goals of a teacher are and how to reach them. I improved drastically (and noticed the students and teachers at that school were better overall than my first school)

harrisonjackson 5y ago

And as far as book selection goes... no one is getting fired for picking Where the Red Fern Grows - but watch out if you go the sci-fi/fantasy route. There are parents that will throw an absolute fit if a school had their kids reading anything with magic.

mumblemumble 5y ago
And yet nobody seems to complain about Homer, which not only includes magic, but also active worship of, and interaction with, pagan deities. How much of it is what the parents are saying it is, and how much of it is really motivated by a tacit belief that school is only legitimate when it's stodgy?

lostcolony 5y ago

I'm talking like second and third grades. Where the teacher literally was reading -to- us. We had copies of the book, we could follow along if we knew how and wanted to, but it most definitely was NOT trying to teach us literary criticism.

hdctambien 5y ago
I think you'd be surprised at what they were trying to teach you. At least in Texas the 3rd grade standards are pretty much the same as the High School standards (for values of "complex" adjusted for grade level) https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/ch110a.pdf https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/ch110a.pdf - The student uses metacognitive skills to both develop and deepen comprehension of increasingly complex texts - The student recognizes and analyzes literary elements within and across increasingly complex traditional, contemporary, classical, and diverse literary texts - The student recognizes and analyzes genre-specific characteristics, structures, and purposes within and across increasingly complex traditional, contemporary, classical, and diverse texts - The student uses critical inquiry to analyze the authors' choices and how they influence and communicate meaning within a variety of texts. - The student analyzes and applies author's craft purposefully in order to develop his or her own products and performances What 3rd grade you thought you were supposed to be learning and what the teacher was actually trying to teach you were not necessarily lined up. Or, you went to a school with a particularly poor English department that just had you write book reports for books you didn't read for no reason other than that's what they always did. That's actually more likely than not. I was a very, very bad math teacher at my first school (I was basically "playing school" and acting like I remembered my math teachers acted.. I had a CS/Math major, not an Education major. I knew the content, but not the pedagogy). The next school I taught at had structures in place that helped me understand what the actual goals of a teacher are and how to reach them. I improved drastically (and noticed the students and teachers at that school were better overall than my first school)