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> colonial A colony of what empire exactly? Jews were a group of massacred refugees. > massive support from the United States There is no massive support fro

> colonial A colony of what empire exactly? Jews were a group of massacred refugees. > massive support from the United States There is no massive support from the United States actually, at least not monetary. There is military help that is needed because Israel's enemies want to destroy it, still to this day. And it's not that big compared to Israel's gdp (4 billion to 400 gdp = 1%) and is completely meaningless to the U.S budget. The other support is vetoing U.N decisions that constantly target Israel. Which is needed for the same reason the military aid is needed. > Israel (the colonial ethnostate) should not exist Should the U.S exist? Last I checked California used to be part of Mexico - why isn't it being returned to it's rightful owners? How about West Europe? Maybe it should be dismantled and have all it's assets transferred to Africa? I've never heard anyone say stuff like that but when it comes to Israel sure let's destroy the evil ethno state.

whimsicalism 5y ago
The US doesn't have a law that says "you can immigrate and be a citizen but only if you are white" Also, the US wasn't born out of a revolution against equal voting rights for people regardless of national origin, Israel, like Rhodesia at the time, was. In both cases, minority groups rebelled against British attempts to impose majority-rule democracy, Israel has just succeeded more than Rhodesia did at the time.
- yoavm 5y ago
  I thought it was the UN that decided the country should be split into two states, where one would have a Jewish majority and the other would have an Arab majority. When did people rebel against imposing a majority-rule democracy? Last time I checked Israel just changed the prime minister after having an election, while Palestine had its last election in 2006 and chose a party that literally killed its opponents.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    I'm on my phone, so the history lesson is going to be pithy. The Jewish insurgency in mandatory Palestine was prompted by British indications that it was going to create a multi-racial, democratic state in Palestine, as they did in many of their other colonies once they departed. I believe there was a policy white paper published but I don't recall the name. After substantial British civilian/government worker deaths at the hands of insurgent bombs (ie. King David Hotel bombing), the British retreated and gave it to the UN, who did the partition. > Palestine had its last election in 2006 and chose a party that literally killed its opponents. I may be misremembering, but I believe a large reason elections haven't been held since then was because the party elected in 2006 was ejected in a coup by the party supported by the US and Israel. So, 14 years since an election in Palestine, and Netanyahu has been prime minister for 14 years.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  > The US doesn't have a law that says "you can immigrate and be a citizen but only if you are white" Israel doesn't have that law either, there are black Jews and Indian Jews and white Jews as you probably know. Israel is an anomaly because of 2000 years of persecution that culminated in the holocaust. Maybe when there is no more any antisemitism (yeah, right) Israel will happily dismantle itself. Until that day it seems to me quite clear why Jews need a nation state.
door101 5y ago
> Should the U.S exist? Last I checked California used to be part of Mexico - why isn't it being returned to it's rightful owners? Yes, the U.S. is also a colonial state. Not all states owe their existence to colonialism and occupation, but the U.S. is definitely one of them. We committed a genocide on an unimaginable scale, and took all the line of the people whose territory this was rightfully theirs. Not a good example of states to emulate. > How about West Europe? Maybe it should be dismantled and have all it's assets transferred to Africa? Its colonial territories in Africa should have been, and were, transferred to Africa.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  > Yes, the U.S. is also a colonial state Who is actively calling for the dismantling of the United States? No one. But Israel is fair game. > Its colonial territories in Africa should have been, and were, transferred to Africa. How is that enough though when comparing with the much more minor "crimes" Israel did? Israel displaced 700000 people as part of a brutal civil war where it also suffered major casualties. Belgium, Germany, France and others destroyed millions of Africans and robbed their nations. How is it enough for them to simply retreat from their colonies? If you actively call out for Israel to be dismantled I would expect for Europe to at least give away 50% of it's wealth to the people it destroyed. That sounds somehow fair to me or at least morally consistent. If what happened 73 years ago in Palestine must not be forgiven I don't see why everybody else gets a pass.
  - door101 5y ago
    > Who is actively calling for the dismantling of the United States? No one. But Israel is fair game. Because we "won". There are almost no indigenous people left in the United States, because we killed nearly all of them and destroyed their culture and civilization. I hope that this does not happen to Palestinians. For those indigenous people that remain, I definitely support greatly expanded rights and territory. > If you actively call out for Israel to be dismantled I would expect for Europe to at least give away 50% of it's wealth to the people it destroyed. One could argue on the number and logistics, but I absolutely support stronger European reparations for the damage done by colonialism.
8note 5y ago
Land in the US is slowly being returned to native American groups.
- eli_gottlieb 5y ago
  Yes, which is precisely the rationale for the State of Israel.

whimsicalism 5y ago

The US doesn't have a law that says "you can immigrate and be a citizen but only if you are white" Also, the US wasn't born out of a revolution against equal voting rights for people regardless of national origin, Israel, like Rhodesia at the time, was. In both cases, minority groups rebelled against British attempts to impose majority-rule democracy, Israel has just succeeded more than Rhodesia did at the time.

yoavm 5y ago
I thought it was the UN that decided the country should be split into two states, where one would have a Jewish majority and the other would have an Arab majority. When did people rebel against imposing a majority-rule democracy? Last time I checked Israel just changed the prime minister after having an election, while Palestine had its last election in 2006 and chose a party that literally killed its opponents.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  I'm on my phone, so the history lesson is going to be pithy. The Jewish insurgency in mandatory Palestine was prompted by British indications that it was going to create a multi-racial, democratic state in Palestine, as they did in many of their other colonies once they departed. I believe there was a policy white paper published but I don't recall the name. After substantial British civilian/government worker deaths at the hands of insurgent bombs (ie. King David Hotel bombing), the British retreated and gave it to the UN, who did the partition. > Palestine had its last election in 2006 and chose a party that literally killed its opponents. I may be misremembering, but I believe a large reason elections haven't been held since then was because the party elected in 2006 was ejected in a coup by the party supported by the US and Israel. So, 14 years since an election in Palestine, and Netanyahu has been prime minister for 14 years.
joelbluminator 5y ago
> The US doesn't have a law that says "you can immigrate and be a citizen but only if you are white" Israel doesn't have that law either, there are black Jews and Indian Jews and white Jews as you probably know. Israel is an anomaly because of 2000 years of persecution that culminated in the holocaust. Maybe when there is no more any antisemitism (yeah, right) Israel will happily dismantle itself. Until that day it seems to me quite clear why Jews need a nation state.

door101 5y ago

> Should the U.S exist? Last I checked California used to be part of Mexico - why isn't it being returned to it's rightful owners? Yes, the U.S. is also a colonial state. Not all states owe their existence to colonialism and occupation, but the U.S. is definitely one of them. We committed a genocide on an unimaginable scale, and took all the line of the people whose territory this was rightfully theirs. Not a good example of states to emulate. > How about West Europe? Maybe it should be dismantled and have all it's assets transferred to Africa? Its colonial territories in Africa should have been, and were, transferred to Africa.

joelbluminator 5y ago
> Yes, the U.S. is also a colonial state Who is actively calling for the dismantling of the United States? No one. But Israel is fair game. > Its colonial territories in Africa should have been, and were, transferred to Africa. How is that enough though when comparing with the much more minor "crimes" Israel did? Israel displaced 700000 people as part of a brutal civil war where it also suffered major casualties. Belgium, Germany, France and others destroyed millions of Africans and robbed their nations. How is it enough for them to simply retreat from their colonies? If you actively call out for Israel to be dismantled I would expect for Europe to at least give away 50% of it's wealth to the people it destroyed. That sounds somehow fair to me or at least morally consistent. If what happened 73 years ago in Palestine must not be forgiven I don't see why everybody else gets a pass.
- door101 5y ago
  > Who is actively calling for the dismantling of the United States? No one. But Israel is fair game. Because we "won". There are almost no indigenous people left in the United States, because we killed nearly all of them and destroyed their culture and civilization. I hope that this does not happen to Palestinians. For those indigenous people that remain, I definitely support greatly expanded rights and territory. > If you actively call out for Israel to be dismantled I would expect for Europe to at least give away 50% of it's wealth to the people it destroyed. One could argue on the number and logistics, but I absolutely support stronger European reparations for the damage done by colonialism.

8note 5y ago

Land in the US is slowly being returned to native American groups.

eli_gottlieb 5y ago
Yes, which is precisely the rationale for the State of Israel.