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That’s a huge straw man. I am critical of some of Israel’s behavior, but by no means calling for its complete destruction.

bern4444 5y ago
I believe you, but too many people use the line, I'm not antisemitic, I'm just criticizing the government as a scapegoat to excuse obvious antisemitic behavior.
- Retric 5y ago
  ‘too many’ is rather shifting the goalposts here. The vast majority of people are criticizing the government not the population. It’s unusual for people to consider a nation’s population rather than their government because a nation’s population is largely irrelevant. It’s not random Americans that have a history of overthrowing democratically elected governments, it’s the US government that does so etc. Israel’s government, like all governments, does plenty of things people disagree with and as such often gets legitimate criticism on it’s own merits.
  - bern4444 5y ago
    Sure, but Americans aren't randomly attacked when abroad or out doing normal things, like getting food out or drinks. And yet, Jews are today. It wasn't too long ago that people marched in Charlottesville chanting jews will not replace us. Now there's a massive rise in violence
    - kmonsen 5y ago
      Jews and Israel should have no connection. Attacking Jews for what Israel does is just incredibly wrong. Let’s be very clear, any criticisms of Israels actions should not apply to Jews as a race, people or religion and even more so not be used as an excuse to harm or treat any single Jewish person negatively.
    - Retric 5y ago
      > Sure, but Americans aren't randomly attacked when abroad or out doing normal things, like getting food out or drinks. Yes, they are. The US State Department issues travel advisories over such issues. It’s safer to travel in many places as a Canadian rather than American.
      - kmonsen 5y ago
        That’s true but severely understates antisemitism both historically and currently. Americans does not and have not faced the kind of discrimination that Jews have.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- plutonorm 5y ago
  I've not met many. But I have met plenty of people who deliberately conflate criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews in order to easily dismiss criticism of the former. I'm part Jewish.
Ozzie_osman 5y ago
This. You can be critical of Israel's actions. You can also be critical of Israel's existence specifically as a nation that discriminates against non-Jewish citizens. None of this means you are an anti-semite who wants the destruction of Israel, let alone Jews. By and large, for example, the UN security council resolutions that the US keeps single-handedly vetoing are not calling for any destruction. They simply condemn Israel's violent behavior.
- bern4444 5y ago
  Of course one can. Except for the fact that often people scapegoat their criticisms with a line like I'm not antisemtic, I'm just criticizing the government. Which typically comes just before an anti semetic comment is made. It's also an entirely an uneven playing field. No other country is condemned and attacked by the international community as often, and as widely despite other countries' far worse offense. Criticisms of Israel is unique and direct and no other country is held to the same standard. How much of a joke is it that Saudi Arabia was on the human rights commission at the UN for so long. Or the lack of similar statements against China for their decimation of Uighurs. This isn't a finger blaming game, its recognizing that the UN demonstrates a massive bias against a single country with standards that no other nation has to face
- vasilipupkin 5y ago
  This is technically true but ignores the complexity of the situation, which is that Israel is essentially at war with groups such as Hamas, which call for Israel's destruction and deny its right to exist. When Hamas starts firing rockets at Israeli civilians, it just isn't clear what response critics prefer Israel show. Israel has little choice but try to destroy and degrade the infrastructure used to fire those rockets. Israeli violent behavior is in response to attack on its civilian population. Ignoring this while criticizing Israel seems strange to me
  - kmonsen 5y ago
    We will never know but I believe this current conflict was provoked by Israel with heavy police presence outside the mosque in Jerusalem. For what it is worth I have visited Israel and the West Bank, and my sympathies are with Israel as the only democracy in the region. That does not mean I cannot criticize when it acts wrongly. Sure the whole conflict is incredibly difficult with no easy solutions, but some people want to use it to stay in power. Of course Hamas is not better, but that is not the expectation for Israel.
myfavoritedog 5y ago
Your comment is a straw man because I never claimed that you couldn't be critical of Israel but not be antisemitic. In fact, I said it's theoretically possible. I just find that in practice, people who show their hand at being antisemitic seem to try to hide behind the whole anti-zionist/antisemitic distinction. Based solely on the merits, you'd think that Israel's ethno-state bona fides wouldn't be any worse than dozens of other countries'. In fact, they're far less problematic. You can be Arabic/Muslim in Israel and rise to the highest levels of government with full rights of citizenship. I can point to many other countries where that wouldn't be the case for ethnically/religiously mal-aligned individuals. But somehow those other countries aren't constantly in the news cycle for defending their ongoing right to exist.

bern4444 5y ago

I believe you, but too many people use the line, I'm not antisemitic, I'm just criticizing the government as a scapegoat to excuse obvious antisemitic behavior.

Retric 5y ago
‘too many’ is rather shifting the goalposts here. The vast majority of people are criticizing the government not the population. It’s unusual for people to consider a nation’s population rather than their government because a nation’s population is largely irrelevant. It’s not random Americans that have a history of overthrowing democratically elected governments, it’s the US government that does so etc. Israel’s government, like all governments, does plenty of things people disagree with and as such often gets legitimate criticism on it’s own merits.
- bern4444 5y ago
  Sure, but Americans aren't randomly attacked when abroad or out doing normal things, like getting food out or drinks. And yet, Jews are today. It wasn't too long ago that people marched in Charlottesville chanting jews will not replace us. Now there's a massive rise in violence
  - kmonsen 5y ago
    Jews and Israel should have no connection. Attacking Jews for what Israel does is just incredibly wrong. Let’s be very clear, any criticisms of Israels actions should not apply to Jews as a race, people or religion and even more so not be used as an excuse to harm or treat any single Jewish person negatively.
  - Retric 5y ago
    > Sure, but Americans aren't randomly attacked when abroad or out doing normal things, like getting food out or drinks. Yes, they are. The US State Department issues travel advisories over such issues. It’s safer to travel in many places as a Canadian rather than American.
    - kmonsen 5y ago
      That’s true but severely understates antisemitism both historically and currently. Americans does not and have not faced the kind of discrimination that Jews have.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
plutonorm 5y ago
I've not met many. But I have met plenty of people who deliberately conflate criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews in order to easily dismiss criticism of the former. I'm part Jewish.

Ozzie_osman 5y ago

This. You can be critical of Israel's actions. You can also be critical of Israel's existence specifically as a nation that discriminates against non-Jewish citizens. None of this means you are an anti-semite who wants the destruction of Israel, let alone Jews. By and large, for example, the UN security council resolutions that the US keeps single-handedly vetoing are not calling for any destruction. They simply condemn Israel's violent behavior.

bern4444 5y ago
Of course one can. Except for the fact that often people scapegoat their criticisms with a line like I'm not antisemtic, I'm just criticizing the government. Which typically comes just before an anti semetic comment is made. It's also an entirely an uneven playing field. No other country is condemned and attacked by the international community as often, and as widely despite other countries' far worse offense. Criticisms of Israel is unique and direct and no other country is held to the same standard. How much of a joke is it that Saudi Arabia was on the human rights commission at the UN for so long. Or the lack of similar statements against China for their decimation of Uighurs. This isn't a finger blaming game, its recognizing that the UN demonstrates a massive bias against a single country with standards that no other nation has to face
vasilipupkin 5y ago
This is technically true but ignores the complexity of the situation, which is that Israel is essentially at war with groups such as Hamas, which call for Israel's destruction and deny its right to exist. When Hamas starts firing rockets at Israeli civilians, it just isn't clear what response critics prefer Israel show. Israel has little choice but try to destroy and degrade the infrastructure used to fire those rockets. Israeli violent behavior is in response to attack on its civilian population. Ignoring this while criticizing Israel seems strange to me
- kmonsen 5y ago
  We will never know but I believe this current conflict was provoked by Israel with heavy police presence outside the mosque in Jerusalem. For what it is worth I have visited Israel and the West Bank, and my sympathies are with Israel as the only democracy in the region. That does not mean I cannot criticize when it acts wrongly. Sure the whole conflict is incredibly difficult with no easy solutions, but some people want to use it to stay in power. Of course Hamas is not better, but that is not the expectation for Israel.

myfavoritedog 5y ago

Your comment is a straw man because I never claimed that you couldn't be critical of Israel but not be antisemitic. In fact, I said it's theoretically possible. I just find that in practice, people who show their hand at being antisemitic seem to try to hide behind the whole anti-zionist/antisemitic distinction. Based solely on the merits, you'd think that Israel's ethno-state bona fides wouldn't be any worse than dozens of other countries'. In fact, they're far less problematic. You can be Arabic/Muslim in Israel and rise to the highest levels of government with full rights of citizenship. I can point to many other countries where that wouldn't be the case for ethnically/religiously mal-aligned individuals. But somehow those other countries aren't constantly in the news cycle for defending their ongoing right to exist.