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it’s really strange… You don’t think there’s anything about it’s recent creation that makes this a special case?

varjag 5y ago
I don't think so. There's plenty of states with ongoing ethnic strife, and they do face a lot of deserved criticism. However I can't really recall popular, internationally supported calls for their abolition altogether. The age of state again has not much to with it: for example Lebanon is younger than Israel and has a rich history of ethnic/sectarian conflict. Now there must be people who want to abolish Lebanon, but somehow you never hear them.
- treeman79 5y ago
  Seems like a lot of people forget there was a goal in a big portion of Europe to exterminate all Jews. So when some are shouting to end Israel, it’s not unreasonable to think the next step is finish the genocide.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  > for example Lebanon is younger than Israel What people usually find particularly offensive is the de-facto annexation and settlement of territories that exceed the UN resolution that created the State of Israel, along with the complete imbalance in both military power and casualties of both sides. It's not just ethnic/sectarian conflict. In many aspects, it would qualify as genocide.
  - varjag 5y ago
    Well, Syria is just across the border with genocide (not just as rhetorical device) very much ongoing. Military imbalance a plenty. Anyone up for dissolving it yet? Hell, even outright Nazism wasn't deemed a reason enough to dissolve Germany (although at some point it was seriously considered).
    - rbanffy 5y ago
      I don't think anyone is advocating for the dissolution of Israel. While the Syrian government is doing appalling things to its own people, I don't think we want to use "We're better than Syria" as the bar here. The Israeli government and its people need to take a hard look at what it is doing, whether they'd like to be subjected to it by a foreign military power, and how they'd react against it. If they wouldn't like it, and if they would react violently against it, then I believe we'd have a lesson to learn and understand what Palestinians are experiencing and why a more peaceful solution would be a more constructive way to move forward. Some of the pain points can be immediately addressed. And Germany was, in fact, dissolved into two smaller and very different countries for a long, long time after WWII. Their own wounds and the memory of the horrors they perpetrated, and the lesson that very normal people can do unimaginable evil is a tough one to learn, but one we must learn nevertheless if we decide to be better than our ancestors.
      - varjag 5y ago
        Germany was partitioned between rivalling occupation forces, and neither did dissolve the bit of German state they held on. There is little doubt that either party would have preferred the whole Germany on their side, but dissolution was never on the table. And yes, plenty people do advocate for dissolution of Israel, it's in fact a mainstream (but not the only one) position among pro-Palestinian activists.
      - myfavoritedog 5y ago
        I don't think anyone is advocating for the dissolution of Israel That's exactly what many advocate. It's in the charter political documents of the Palestinian ruling authorities. Major US politicians hold this position who receive a lot of political and media support. Notable celebrities have tweeted/said "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". What do you think they mean by that besides the utter destruction of the state of Israel? whether they'd like to be subjected to it by a foreign military power Since the Israelis only are responding to being attacked, I fail to see how they're in any way being hypocritical.
        5y ago
bern4444 5y ago
Italy just celebrated the founding of its republic, which was in 1946...
- cratermoon 5y ago
  So no state called "Italy" existed in more-or-less the same form before 1946?
  - floren 5y ago
    True, the disparate Italian states were unified into the Kingdom of Italy in the 1860s, so it's older than Israel but younger than the US.
- strken 5y ago
  Italy was unified back in the 1800s, so this is stretching the truth a little. It existed as a kingdom well before becoming a republic. It also has a surprisingly long list of separatist movements[0], which it has has thus far refrained from bombing with US-funded F16s. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe#Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_move...
iratic0 5y ago
Nothing to do with Israel's recent creation, many states have been created recently without them being targeted by neighbours for mass destruction and genocide. What makes it strange is sense of normalcy people (sorry, I mean racists) have about a sense of white / Islamic supremacy over Jews, that makes them think it's ok to say things like 'we will wipe every Jew off the face of the planet' etc.
myfavoritedog 5y ago
So now we're against indigenous peoples having autonomy in their ancestral homeland?

I don't think so. There's plenty of states with ongoing ethnic strife, and they do face a lot of deserved criticism. However I can't really recall popular, internationally supported calls for their abolition altogether. The age of state again has not much to with it: for example Lebanon is younger than Israel and has a rich history of ethnic/sectarian conflict. Now there must be people who want to abolish Lebanon, but somehow you never hear them.

treeman79 5y ago
Seems like a lot of people forget there was a goal in a big portion of Europe to exterminate all Jews. So when some are shouting to end Israel, it’s not unreasonable to think the next step is finish the genocide.
rbanffy 5y ago
> for example Lebanon is younger than Israel What people usually find particularly offensive is the de-facto annexation and settlement of territories that exceed the UN resolution that created the State of Israel, along with the complete imbalance in both military power and casualties of both sides. It's not just ethnic/sectarian conflict. In many aspects, it would qualify as genocide.
- varjag 5y ago
  Well, Syria is just across the border with genocide (not just as rhetorical device) very much ongoing. Military imbalance a plenty. Anyone up for dissolving it yet? Hell, even outright Nazism wasn't deemed a reason enough to dissolve Germany (although at some point it was seriously considered).
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    I don't think anyone is advocating for the dissolution of Israel. While the Syrian government is doing appalling things to its own people, I don't think we want to use "We're better than Syria" as the bar here. The Israeli government and its people need to take a hard look at what it is doing, whether they'd like to be subjected to it by a foreign military power, and how they'd react against it. If they wouldn't like it, and if they would react violently against it, then I believe we'd have a lesson to learn and understand what Palestinians are experiencing and why a more peaceful solution would be a more constructive way to move forward. Some of the pain points can be immediately addressed. And Germany was, in fact, dissolved into two smaller and very different countries for a long, long time after WWII. Their own wounds and the memory of the horrors they perpetrated, and the lesson that very normal people can do unimaginable evil is a tough one to learn, but one we must learn nevertheless if we decide to be better than our ancestors.
    - varjag 5y ago
      Germany was partitioned between rivalling occupation forces, and neither did dissolve the bit of German state they held on. There is little doubt that either party would have preferred the whole Germany on their side, but dissolution was never on the table. And yes, plenty people do advocate for dissolution of Israel, it's in fact a mainstream (but not the only one) position among pro-Palestinian activists.
    - myfavoritedog 5y ago
      I don't think anyone is advocating for the dissolution of Israel That's exactly what many advocate. It's in the charter political documents of the Palestinian ruling authorities. Major US politicians hold this position who receive a lot of political and media support. Notable celebrities have tweeted/said "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". What do you think they mean by that besides the utter destruction of the state of Israel? whether they'd like to be subjected to it by a foreign military power Since the Israelis only are responding to being attacked, I fail to see how they're in any way being hypocritical.
      - 5y ago

bern4444 5y ago

Italy just celebrated the founding of its republic, which was in 1946...

cratermoon 5y ago
So no state called "Italy" existed in more-or-less the same form before 1946?
- floren 5y ago
  True, the disparate Italian states were unified into the Kingdom of Italy in the 1860s, so it's older than Israel but younger than the US.
strken 5y ago
Italy was unified back in the 1800s, so this is stretching the truth a little. It existed as a kingdom well before becoming a republic. It also has a surprisingly long list of separatist movements[0], which it has has thus far refrained from bombing with US-funded F16s. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe#Italy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_move...

iratic0 5y ago

Nothing to do with Israel's recent creation, many states have been created recently without them being targeted by neighbours for mass destruction and genocide. What makes it strange is sense of normalcy people (sorry, I mean racists) have about a sense of white / Islamic supremacy over Jews, that makes them think it's ok to say things like 'we will wipe every Jew off the face of the planet' etc.

myfavoritedog 5y ago

So now we're against indigenous peoples having autonomy in their ancestral homeland?