4 ms·

> most teachers aren’t experts, they just seem like that, to kids Oof. That's cold. Not necessarily wrong, but cold. I mean, most software developers are not a

> most teachers aren’t experts, they just seem like that, to kids Oof. That's cold. Not necessarily wrong, but cold. I mean, most software developers are not actually good at developing software, they just seem like that because they've only been asked to write the same CRUD app over and over again. Teachers may not be "experts" like a PhD in a topic is an expert, but they are educated (Bachelors minimum, many states require a Masters eventually) but they are often experts in education. It turns out just knowing a lot about a topic does not qualify you to teach it (see: many college professors). Effective teaching is a skill that lots of people think they have, but few actually do. It doesn't really matter what Hamlet said. Literature is a class where you learn to express yourself and are exposed to how other people/cultures/times express themselves in a structured way. And how would you know that you don't care about Hamlet unless you were made to read it? You could live a successful life without reading any books ever (you could even be President of the United States!) but it would be much richer if you were exposed to ideas/topics that challenge you. And who knows where you could use that information. Heck, Bob Dylan made an entire career as a musician off of the AP English curriculum.

lostcolony 5y ago
I can guarantee you that challenging someone who does not want to be challenged will not actually cause them to learn anything. When I was a kid, two different years, the teachers had us read/read to us "Where the Red Fern Grows". At the time, I was reading fantasy from the adult section at the library (and was teased for it; both the fact I was reading for fun, and the subject matter). Literally the only thing I remember about that book is how much I hated it. It's one thing I have to give Harry Potter, despite J. K. Rowling. It popularized fantasy enough that kids read on their own, and normalized reading books for fun in schools.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- hdctambien 5y ago
  I don't disagree with you. When I was in school (and still now, really) if there wasn't a dragon or a spaceship on the cover, I wasn't interested in it. I remember more about Where the Red Fern Grows, but not much (a kid gets mail order dogs to hunt with and (spoilers) the dogs die ... because the dogs always die). The only thing I remember about Silas Marner is that he buried his money and it was stolen (not a spoiler, that's like chapter 1). Something to know about English classes in particular (but also History and other liberal arts/non-science classes) is that isn't not about "the books", but critical thinking and discussion. In fact, it's likely that the mandated standards don't specify specific books to read. It turns out, though, that in a class of 30+ kids, it's easiest (or even possible) to have a critical discussion if everyone reads the same books at the same time. Also, if the kids think they are being "taught the book" but the teacher is trying to teach "literary literacy" using "the book" as an example, that's when you get arguments like "I didn't learn anything!" and "This is a waste of my time!" and "This other book is better!". Those arguments are besides the point. You should have been talking about why the author made the literary decisions they made, what were the themes? Whose point of view was it told from? How was the book impactful (or not)? These are the standards in Texas. Other states should have this information publicly available and I assume they will be very similar. https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/ch110c.pdf https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/ch110c.pdf For English II these are the skills a student should learn (notice no specific books are mentioned, but "traditional", "contemporary", "classical", and "diverse" are used to describe the books) - The student develops oral language through listening, speaking, and discussion - The student uses newly acquired vocabulary expressively - The student reads grade-appropriate texts independently. - The student is expected to self-select text and read independently for a sustained period of time. - The student uses metacognitive skills to both develop and deepen comprehension of increasingly complex texts - The student responds to an increasingly challenging variety of sources that are read, heard, or viewed - The student recognizes and analyzes literary elements within and across increasingly complex traditional, contemporary, classical, and diverse literary texts - The student recognizes and analyzes genre-specific characteristics, structures, and purposes within and across increasingly complex traditional, contemporary, classical, and diverse texts - The student uses critical inquiry to analyze the authors' choices and how they influence and communicate meaning within a variety of texts. - The student analyzes and applies author's craft purposefully in order to develop his or her own products and performances. - The student uses the writing process recursively to compose multiple texts that are legible and use appropriate conventions - The student uses genre characteristics and craft to compose multiple texts that are meaningful - The student engages in both short-term and sustained recursive inquiry processes for a variety of purposes Much like learning a foreign language is about more than learning vocabulary, but you can't learn how to talk in a restaurant if you don't know the restaurant related vocabulary. English class is about more than reading books, but you can't have those discussions if you haven't read the books. Or, it would be much more difficult to effectively "analyze literary elements" in a classroom setting with 30 kids that all ready 30 different books. Sure, teachers can be better or worse (or very, very bad) at teaching the material, or conveying what is being taught. But if you view English class as equivalent to "sitting under a tree and reading a book" (that was another commenter's words, not yours) then you're missing the forest for the tree and it won't matter how good the teacher is, you will be fighting them the whole way (which is maybe your point about not being able to challenge someone that doesn't want to be challenged)
- Mauricebranagh 5y ago
  Reading the summary oh cool not a YA novel about hunting animals for fun yay
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jen20 5y ago
> I mean, most software developers are not actually good at developing software, they just seem like that because they've only been asked to write the same CRUD app over and over again. That is not the slam dunk argument you seem to think it is. In my experience, most developers with “10 years of experience” (who have worked in enterprise, at least) actually have one year of experience ten times.
- apetresc 5y ago
  I think that's exactly his argument?
  - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
    Yes. That's also exactly why, when I look to hire software engineers and think about their compensation, I'm not looking for their years of experience, I'm looking for their years of progressive experience.
    - scruple 5y ago
      > I'm looking for their years of progressive experience What signals do you find have helped you tease that out of something like a resume?
AlgorithmicTime 5y ago
>Teachers may not be "experts" like a PhD in a topic is an expert, but they are educated (Bachelors minimum, many states require a Masters eventually) but they are often experts in education. If they were experts in education, presumably they would know how to do education.
apetresc 5y ago
> Heck, Bob Dylan made an entire career as a musician off of the AP English curriculum. I have no idea what you mean by that, can you explain?
- meristohm 5y ago
  I’ll take a stab at an answer: my understanding is that Dylan borrowed heavily from folktales, folklore, and the work of other balladiers. Checking myself, I see on his Wikipedia entry[0]: “ The thing about rock'n'roll is that for me anyway it wasn't enough ... There were great catch-phrases and driving pulse rhythms ... but the songs weren't serious or didn't reflect life in a realistic way. I knew that when I got into folk music, it was more of a serious type of thing. The songs are filled with more despair, more sadness, more triumph, more faith in the supernatural, much deeper feelings.” -Bob Dylan, 1985 Exposure to stories with a range of emotions is part of the point of English class. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan
- hdctambien 5y ago
  I read an article (or maybe a biography author interview on NPR) about how pretty much all of his double-meanings/literary references came from the honors English curriculum from his time in school (probably pre-80's Dylan). However, now when I try to google for it I just find pages and pages of results about whether he deserved the Nobel prize or not.
- handrous 5y ago
  I took it as a reference to his lyrics, for which "AP English" would make a pretty good tongue-in-cheek categorization of the style & content. Same with the text he writes for the back of his album covers. It's not the kind of thing I'd expect someone without exposure to and some affinity for that kind of thing (literature and poetry, that is) to invent spontaneously.

lostcolony 5y ago

I can guarantee you that challenging someone who does not want to be challenged will not actually cause them to learn anything. When I was a kid, two different years, the teachers had us read/read to us "Where the Red Fern Grows". At the time, I was reading fantasy from the adult section at the library (and was teased for it; both the fact I was reading for fun, and the subject matter). Literally the only thing I remember about that book is how much I hated it. It's one thing I have to give Harry Potter, despite J. K. Rowling. It popularized fantasy enough that kids read on their own, and normalized reading books for fun in schools.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
hdctambien 5y ago
I don't disagree with you. When I was in school (and still now, really) if there wasn't a dragon or a spaceship on the cover, I wasn't interested in it. I remember more about Where the Red Fern Grows, but not much (a kid gets mail order dogs to hunt with and (spoilers) the dogs die ... because the dogs always die). The only thing I remember about Silas Marner is that he buried his money and it was stolen (not a spoiler, that's like chapter 1). Something to know about English classes in particular (but also History and other liberal arts/non-science classes) is that isn't not about "the books", but critical thinking and discussion. In fact, it's likely that the mandated standards don't specify specific books to read. It turns out, though, that in a class of 30+ kids, it's easiest (or even possible) to have a critical discussion if everyone reads the same books at the same time. Also, if the kids think they are being "taught the book" but the teacher is trying to teach "literary literacy" using "the book" as an example, that's when you get arguments like "I didn't learn anything!" and "This is a waste of my time!" and "This other book is better!". Those arguments are besides the point. You should have been talking about why the author made the literary decisions they made, what were the themes? Whose point of view was it told from? How was the book impactful (or not)? These are the standards in Texas. Other states should have this information publicly available and I assume they will be very similar. https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/ch110c.pdf https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/ch110c.pdf For English II these are the skills a student should learn (notice no specific books are mentioned, but "traditional", "contemporary", "classical", and "diverse" are used to describe the books) - The student develops oral language through listening, speaking, and discussion - The student uses newly acquired vocabulary expressively - The student reads grade-appropriate texts independently. - The student is expected to self-select text and read independently for a sustained period of time. - The student uses metacognitive skills to both develop and deepen comprehension of increasingly complex texts - The student responds to an increasingly challenging variety of sources that are read, heard, or viewed - The student recognizes and analyzes literary elements within and across increasingly complex traditional, contemporary, classical, and diverse literary texts - The student recognizes and analyzes genre-specific characteristics, structures, and purposes within and across increasingly complex traditional, contemporary, classical, and diverse texts - The student uses critical inquiry to analyze the authors' choices and how they influence and communicate meaning within a variety of texts. - The student analyzes and applies author's craft purposefully in order to develop his or her own products and performances. - The student uses the writing process recursively to compose multiple texts that are legible and use appropriate conventions - The student uses genre characteristics and craft to compose multiple texts that are meaningful - The student engages in both short-term and sustained recursive inquiry processes for a variety of purposes Much like learning a foreign language is about more than learning vocabulary, but you can't learn how to talk in a restaurant if you don't know the restaurant related vocabulary. English class is about more than reading books, but you can't have those discussions if you haven't read the books. Or, it would be much more difficult to effectively "analyze literary elements" in a classroom setting with 30 kids that all ready 30 different books. Sure, teachers can be better or worse (or very, very bad) at teaching the material, or conveying what is being taught. But if you view English class as equivalent to "sitting under a tree and reading a book" (that was another commenter's words, not yours) then you're missing the forest for the tree and it won't matter how good the teacher is, you will be fighting them the whole way (which is maybe your point about not being able to challenge someone that doesn't want to be challenged)
Mauricebranagh 5y ago
Reading the summary oh cool not a YA novel about hunting animals for fun yay

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jen20 5y ago

> I mean, most software developers are not actually good at developing software, they just seem like that because they've only been asked to write the same CRUD app over and over again. That is not the slam dunk argument you seem to think it is. In my experience, most developers with “10 years of experience” (who have worked in enterprise, at least) actually have one year of experience ten times.

apetresc 5y ago
I think that's exactly his argument?
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  Yes. That's also exactly why, when I look to hire software engineers and think about their compensation, I'm not looking for their years of experience, I'm looking for their years of progressive experience.
  - scruple 5y ago
    > I'm looking for their years of progressive experience What signals do you find have helped you tease that out of something like a resume?

AlgorithmicTime 5y ago

>Teachers may not be "experts" like a PhD in a topic is an expert, but they are educated (Bachelors minimum, many states require a Masters eventually) but they are often experts in education. If they were experts in education, presumably they would know how to do education.

apetresc 5y ago

> Heck, Bob Dylan made an entire career as a musician off of the AP English curriculum. I have no idea what you mean by that, can you explain?

meristohm 5y ago
I’ll take a stab at an answer: my understanding is that Dylan borrowed heavily from folktales, folklore, and the work of other balladiers. Checking myself, I see on his Wikipedia entry[0]: “ The thing about rock'n'roll is that for me anyway it wasn't enough ... There were great catch-phrases and driving pulse rhythms ... but the songs weren't serious or didn't reflect life in a realistic way. I knew that when I got into folk music, it was more of a serious type of thing. The songs are filled with more despair, more sadness, more triumph, more faith in the supernatural, much deeper feelings.” -Bob Dylan, 1985 Exposure to stories with a range of emotions is part of the point of English class. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Dylan
hdctambien 5y ago
I read an article (or maybe a biography author interview on NPR) about how pretty much all of his double-meanings/literary references came from the honors English curriculum from his time in school (probably pre-80's Dylan). However, now when I try to google for it I just find pages and pages of results about whether he deserved the Nobel prize or not.
handrous 5y ago
I took it as a reference to his lyrics, for which "AP English" would make a pretty good tongue-in-cheek categorization of the style & content. Same with the text he writes for the back of his album covers. It's not the kind of thing I'd expect someone without exposure to and some affinity for that kind of thing (literature and poetry, that is) to invent spontaneously.