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> People can be critical of the state of Israel Sadly the moment you call out Israel's human rights violations and ethnic cleansing you get automatically brand

> People can be critical of the state of Israel Sadly the moment you call out Israel's human rights violations and ethnic cleansing you get automatically branded as antisemitic on all major social media and by most mainstream outlets too.

whimsicalism 5y ago
You must be on a different social media outlet than I am.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  You are in a tread this very moment that shows proof of his opinion.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    In what way? Most people here seem to agree that it is perfectly possible to criticize Israel without being anti-semitic.
    - Dah00n 5y ago
      We'll have to agree to disagree as I have yet to see an example of this on HN. In my experience 100% of submissions (and comments) critical of Israel gets spammed by people saying it is antisemitism.
    - stinos 5y ago
      Most but not all apparently, though I don't think it's as bad as the one you reply to seems to imply. E.g. there's already some 'a lot of anti-Israel is also antisemitism' sentiment creeping in in some comments, without data to back that up.
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        > Most but not all Sorry, why is it a "social media" problem if there isn't unanimous agreement on a certain issue in the comments?
        stinos 5y ago
        I think you misunderstood me (or I don't understand what you are trying to say here). I was just pointing out concrete examples of the 'You are in a tread this very moment that shows proof of his opinion' since you replied to that by asking 'In what way?'.
nezirus 5y ago
Yep, my experience too. Critics of Israel get called antisemitic too easily, moderated down here on HN too. On the other hand, people who defend atrocities committed by IDF get easy pass, openly defending stuff like: "the IDF is really gentle in killing civilians (collateral damage)", they nicely warn Palestinians "we're going to destroy your house, so please leave in 5 minutes", or "be silent while we bulldoze your house", etc. Back on topic, the blog post title is definitely offensive, you can't label people like that. Maybe it was a bad tongue-in-cheek, thinking about it, I don't think you can even say Israelis or citizens of Israel, since not all people have the same political views or support the same solution of the "Palestine problem".
dalbasal 5y ago
There is a lot of disingenuous stuff to go around, in all directions. Antisemitism, antizionism and anti Israel sentiments relating to current events are distinct in purely theoretical terms. One does not imply the other and they often are distinct in practice. IRL though, they're very often intermingled. The banal example is the PNA president's doctoral thesis, that the holocaust was faked to justify zionism. Most Israel critics and all antizionists define/use the term "zionism" entirely differently to how zionists use(d) it... Very often these draw from, or are similar to new world order conspiracy theories, most famously "the protocols." Speaking of old tropes, The Protocols are regularly republished in Islamic publications today. I ran across it once in a random indonesian magazine, for example. This obviously has roots in the Israel Palestine conflict, not antisemitism. Anti Semitism is not part of indonesian culture.. but intermingling. It is true that anti-antisemitism organisations, jews, especially those with ancestral ties to europe can be paranoid about antisemitism and see it where it doesn't exist. It's also true that they often have a better eye, and recognise actual antisemitism where others don't. We know the old stereotypes and libels. A lot of it is contextual. The vast majority of Israelis (myself included) do not suspect antisemitic motives in Palestinians, no matter what "Jews be like X" stuff they say. Antisemitism doesn't mean animosity towards Jews (or semites). It is a specific, european cultural phenomenon that persisted for a long time, and still exists. Many of its features or ostensibly banal. I'm not american, but I think "why is blackface racist" is an analogy of sorts. For "proof" look at unmoderated comments sections of many/most anti-zionist posts. You'll find obvious, unmasked antisemitism very commonly. This is not apologetics, nor does it mean that criticism of Israel is inherently anti semitic, invalid or unacceptable. It also doesn't mean that people are never unjustly accused of antisemtitism.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  > The vast majority of Israelis (myself included) do not suspect antisemitic motives in Palestinians Speak for yourself, I'm Israeli as well and most Israelis don't agree with you. There is antisemitism among Palestinians and there is Islamophobia among Israelis (though to a lesser degree in my opinion), wishing it away won't make it go away
  - 5y ago
lawnchair_larry 5y ago
I know it’s fashionable to support the perceived “oppressed”, but you really have to be at the pinnacle of ignorance to think it’s Israel, the target of ethnic cleansing, is the perpetrator. Palestinians are welcome in Israel with full rights, and they make up about 20% of the population. There are zero jews welcome in Palestinian territory. I don’t think people who criticize Israel are anti-semetic, but they seem to be almost always completely ignorant of the situation and history of the region, so their comments are unintentionally offensive to anyone even vaguely familiar with it.
xdennis 5y ago
Let's hear a sample so we can judge.

whimsicalism 5y ago

You must be on a different social media outlet than I am.

Dah00n 5y ago
You are in a tread this very moment that shows proof of his opinion.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  In what way? Most people here seem to agree that it is perfectly possible to criticize Israel without being anti-semitic.
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    We'll have to agree to disagree as I have yet to see an example of this on HN. In my experience 100% of submissions (and comments) critical of Israel gets spammed by people saying it is antisemitism.
  - stinos 5y ago
    Most but not all apparently, though I don't think it's as bad as the one you reply to seems to imply. E.g. there's already some 'a lot of anti-Israel is also antisemitism' sentiment creeping in in some comments, without data to back that up.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      > Most but not all Sorry, why is it a "social media" problem if there isn't unanimous agreement on a certain issue in the comments?
      - stinos 5y ago
        I think you misunderstood me (or I don't understand what you are trying to say here). I was just pointing out concrete examples of the 'You are in a tread this very moment that shows proof of his opinion' since you replied to that by asking 'In what way?'.

nezirus 5y ago

Yep, my experience too. Critics of Israel get called antisemitic too easily, moderated down here on HN too. On the other hand, people who defend atrocities committed by IDF get easy pass, openly defending stuff like: "the IDF is really gentle in killing civilians (collateral damage)", they nicely warn Palestinians "we're going to destroy your house, so please leave in 5 minutes", or "be silent while we bulldoze your house", etc. Back on topic, the blog post title is definitely offensive, you can't label people like that. Maybe it was a bad tongue-in-cheek, thinking about it, I don't think you can even say Israelis or citizens of Israel, since not all people have the same political views or support the same solution of the "Palestine problem".

dalbasal 5y ago

There is a lot of disingenuous stuff to go around, in all directions. Antisemitism, antizionism and anti Israel sentiments relating to current events are distinct in purely theoretical terms. One does not imply the other and they often are distinct in practice. IRL though, they're very often intermingled. The banal example is the PNA president's doctoral thesis, that the holocaust was faked to justify zionism. Most Israel critics and all antizionists define/use the term "zionism" entirely differently to how zionists use(d) it... Very often these draw from, or are similar to new world order conspiracy theories, most famously "the protocols." Speaking of old tropes, The Protocols are regularly republished in Islamic publications today. I ran across it once in a random indonesian magazine, for example. This obviously has roots in the Israel Palestine conflict, not antisemitism. Anti Semitism is not part of indonesian culture.. but intermingling. It is true that anti-antisemitism organisations, jews, especially those with ancestral ties to europe can be paranoid about antisemitism and see it where it doesn't exist. It's also true that they often have a better eye, and recognise actual antisemitism where others don't. We know the old stereotypes and libels. A lot of it is contextual. The vast majority of Israelis (myself included) do not suspect antisemitic motives in Palestinians, no matter what "Jews be like X" stuff they say. Antisemitism doesn't mean animosity towards Jews (or semites). It is a specific, european cultural phenomenon that persisted for a long time, and still exists. Many of its features or ostensibly banal. I'm not american, but I think "why is blackface racist" is an analogy of sorts. For "proof" look at unmoderated comments sections of many/most anti-zionist posts. You'll find obvious, unmasked antisemitism very commonly. This is not apologetics, nor does it mean that criticism of Israel is inherently anti semitic, invalid or unacceptable. It also doesn't mean that people are never unjustly accused of antisemtitism.

joelbluminator 5y ago
> The vast majority of Israelis (myself included) do not suspect antisemitic motives in Palestinians Speak for yourself, I'm Israeli as well and most Israelis don't agree with you. There is antisemitism among Palestinians and there is Islamophobia among Israelis (though to a lesser degree in my opinion), wishing it away won't make it go away
- 5y ago

lawnchair_larry 5y ago

I know it’s fashionable to support the perceived “oppressed”, but you really have to be at the pinnacle of ignorance to think it’s Israel, the target of ethnic cleansing, is the perpetrator. Palestinians are welcome in Israel with full rights, and they make up about 20% of the population. There are zero jews welcome in Palestinian territory. I don’t think people who criticize Israel are anti-semetic, but they seem to be almost always completely ignorant of the situation and history of the region, so their comments are unintentionally offensive to anyone even vaguely familiar with it.

xdennis 5y ago

Let's hear a sample so we can judge.