5 ms·

Zuck is personally all in on capturing the VR and AR market and making it the next ubiquitous computing platform. They already have their own OS. One fifth of t

Zuck is personally all in on capturing the VR and AR market and making it the next ubiquitous computing platform. They already have their own OS. One fifth of the company is working on VR and AR, 10,000 employees. They are pouring billions into it. Zuck likely understands that he missed the platform boat last time around and doesn't intend to miss the next one. https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/12/22326875/facebook-reality-labs-ar-vr-headcount-report https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/12/22326875/facebook-reality...

nottorp 5y ago
I don't think VR will ever take over the world. Too many people get motion sickness from it and I don't think it's only a matter of more pixels/fps. AR... maybe. My personal opinion is the needed electronics (and especially the battery tech) aren't small enough yet, if we're talking AR glasses. If we're talking AR on phones, where's the killer app? Pokemon go?
- dannyw 5y ago
  You're saying it ain't small enough yet. Another way to say it is, it'll get there, but in the future. That's what FB is investing in
  - simonh 5y ago
    General Magic was investing in the future, but jumping the gun by 10 years didn’t work out so well for them. I suspect VR and AR are probably still that far out. I still remember the buzz about VR back in the late 80s and early 90s. Thirty years later we’re still really not there yet and LeapMotion fell completely flat already.
    - MetaWhirledPeas 5y ago
      The difference is, 30 years ago we did not have viable VR consumer devices for sale. They might not be "iPhone" popular, but they exist now. I liken this to the MP3 player years before the iPod launch.
- gpm 5y ago
  > Too many people get motion sickness from it and I don't think it's only a matter of more pixels/fps. What do you think it's a matter of then? I guess I would add latency to the list, but those 3 metrics seem to capture the difference in visual perception between vr and the real world?
  - Miraste 5y ago
    There are a lot of differences, some of which cause more discomfort than others. Color and contrast are two smaller ones; VR headsets aren't HDR yet and it really shows when trying for realism. There is also focal length, which is fixed (generally at 2 meters) in VR and creates discomfort, especially when reading. Facebook has eye tracking and motorized varifocal lenses to deal with this, but they're too big and loud and they haven't been able to put them in commercial headsets.
  - Agentlien 5y ago
    I'm someone who's used a fair bit of VR. I never really got motion sick, but initially (a few weeks) I did feel somewhat disoriented and at one point almost lost my balance. For me what caused it was the dissonance between what my eyes and my inner ear were telling me regarding my movement and orientation. However, I've noticed that with time my brain seems to have learned that VR is a different mode. I no longer get dizzy from it, but I feel a strange numb feeling in the back of my head. It's like my mind knows not to trust my eyes anymore for balance when in VR.
    - krapp 5y ago
      I've tried to use VR on a treadmill and immediately regretted it every time. It's too bad, because I would really like to be able to do virtual walking tours of places while on the treadmill, but as soon as the camera moves anywhere but where I'm looking at the time, I want to vomit.
    - gpm 5y ago
      That strikes me as a software design problem, you can make movement in VR 1-1 with the real world, for many non-game's it makes a lot of sense to do that. Maybe also a latency problem (a big part of why it's in the list above).
- throwaway3699 5y ago
  The sickness thing has been solved on the hardware side. It's only software that is the issue. Remember when FPS games would never take off because they gave people motion sickness?
  - nottorp 5y ago
    Well, my one data point is i never got sick from a FPS (anything from Wolfenstein for Dos till the present) but I did get sick when I borrowed a PSVR for a weekend. Couldn't use it more than 20-30 mins no matter what i tried, and i had a stack of different games with it to try. Maybe Occulus does it better, I'll never know though.
    - alert0 5y ago
      I get motion sick from Minecraft and nothing else. I have thousands of hours in other FPS, even watching someone else play Minecraft in person makes me nauseous.
    - throwaway3699 5y ago
      Well, I mean, people used to feel queasy after classic FPS games back in the day, but generally people adapted. I expect VR will be similar.
- Xplune13 5y ago
  AR has a long way to go for sure, but I am more interested in AR than I am in VR and I think AR has the potential to go far beyond what VR achieved till now.
- reportingsjr 5y ago
  > If we're talking AR on phones, where's the killer app? Off the top of my head, some very big ideas that are being worked on: * Clothing fit without actually going to a store and trying things on. * Construction assistance (being able to know where things are in walls, being able to measure things accurately in 3 dimensions, check out the leica RTC360) * Furniture arrangements or additions in a home. e.g. use the ikea app to plop down a SÖDERHAMN to see how it would work and look in your space. * See what a room would look like with different paint. I've actually tried this with an app on my iPad recently, and it is still a little glitchy, but was really freaking cool vs using paint swatches or buying test pints of paint. * Troubleshooting and repair. I tried out this really cool app last year called inspectAR (https://www.inspectar.com/ https://www.inspectar.com/). The desktop app was mindblowing and at my last job when I did lots of circuit board repair/manufacturing adjustments this would have been insanely useful! I can only imagine how nice this would be to have on a trip to Shenzhen for troubleshooting production issues. Beyond this, yes, games are a huge potential for AR. Brush it aside as something unimportant since it isn't "useful" or whatever, but games are a huge part of people's lives at this point. I've been waiting for a company called TiltFive which basically spun out of valve to launch their AR hardware, it looks and sounds really impressive. The list goes well past this, but AR has some serious potential.
  - shock-value 5y ago
    The things in your first paragraph are all useful, but not killer apps (IMO). Just nice conveniences. My prediction is that Pokemon Go will prove to be by far the biggest splash to have been made in the phone AR space, and in the larger scheme of gaming it so far hasn't been more than a long-since-passed fad. I'm pretty doubtful that even glasses-mounted AR will catch on among consumers in day-to-day life -- but there could be significant specific use cases e.g. education, certain professions, etc. On-the-job type stuff. Having experienced VR as an owner of a Quest 2 linked to a VR capable PC -- I'm very bullish on VR in the home entertainment space -- not just games but also pre-recorded or live video content, etc. Not sure about social but I'm sure Facebook will try.
    - nottorp 5y ago
- nr2x 5y ago
  The book rainbows end by Vernon vinge had some really intriguing ideas about AR. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End
  - nottorp 5y ago
    Gibson's Virtual Light is about a stolen pair of AR glasses. Charlie Stross's Accelerando has a chapter where the main character is basically crippled because ... he lost his AR glasses and can't function without the info in them. Last one is available online: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/accelerando/accelerando-intro.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/accelera...
    - nr2x 5y ago
      Really not a fan of virtual light personally, Accelerando on the other hand is a very fun ride.
- ctvo 5y ago
  > I don't think VR will ever take over the world. Too many people get motion sickness from it and I don't think it's only a matter of more pixels/fps. To think they won't solve motion sickness (or N other teething issues), like it's general AI vs. a problem of incremental improvement is a little short sighted.
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  > I don't think VR will ever take over the world. Too many people get motion sickness from it I imagine similar things were send about planes in the early 1900s. "It's not natural!" But in all seriousness I think they'll solve this (motion sickness) one way or another.
  - nottorp 5y ago
    I don't know, it seems much bearable to get airsick during a finite flight than to get a VR headset when you know that it will always get you sick. Maybe I sound more sceptical than I am. The second they put out a VR system that doesn't make me sick (and isn't linked to Facebook) I'll be queueing for one. I'm just not sure when that will happen.
- danaris 5y ago
  The killer app for AR isn't going to be on phones. It's going to come when (and, I suppose, if) the hardware gets small enough that it can be integrated into glasses that are comparable in weight and bulk to current prescription eyeglasses (and, ideally, can actually incorporate prescription lenses, for those of us who need those to see every day). At that point, the "killer app" becomes the ability to augment your own senses and memory with, for instance, facial recognition that reminds you of who this person is, useful facts you know about them, etc. Or walking or driving directions that are overlaid directly on your view of the actual paths/streets/etc. Or even virtual tours of places—either places you're physically in, or places you're nowhere near, but have a space of comparable size you can walk around in! The danger, as we saw with Google Glass, is twofold: on the one hand, allowing an unregulated tech titan like Google or Facebook to have access to cameras attached to people's faces; and on the other hand, the fear of allowing anyone to walk around with an always-on (or potentially always-on) camera, whether its recordings ever left the device or not.
xenihn 5y ago
Oculus uses Android. What are they using their own OS for, and what is it called?
- dougmwne 5y ago
  It may be based on Android, but without Google Services, it's just an open source OS they can base their custom distro for Oculus off of.
spideymans 5y ago
I cannot imagine that Facebook will be able to compete with whatever Apple has planned in the AR space. Every platform advantage that made the Apple Watch incredibly difficult to compete with will be so much more important with AR. This is particularly evident when considering Apple's lead in silicon, which will allow Apple's AR products to be lighter, faster and longer lasting than their competitors. Apple's vertical integration means that there should be more AR "apps" and better software integration than any of their competitors. Apple's pro-privacy push means that consumers will be far more willing to strap Apple branded AR glasses to their face all day. Facebook might be able to out-compete Apple in VR (silicon performance and efficiency is not as critical for VR), however VR likely will not have the same mainstream appeal that AR will have.
- dougmwne 5y ago
  I believe the key moment that Facebook is racing towards is an AR conversation with a loved one sitting across the table from you, as there and present as real life. We'll see if Apple can get there first.

nottorp 5y ago

I don't think VR will ever take over the world. Too many people get motion sickness from it and I don't think it's only a matter of more pixels/fps. AR... maybe. My personal opinion is the needed electronics (and especially the battery tech) aren't small enough yet, if we're talking AR glasses. If we're talking AR on phones, where's the killer app? Pokemon go?

dannyw 5y ago
You're saying it ain't small enough yet. Another way to say it is, it'll get there, but in the future. That's what FB is investing in
- simonh 5y ago
  General Magic was investing in the future, but jumping the gun by 10 years didn’t work out so well for them. I suspect VR and AR are probably still that far out. I still remember the buzz about VR back in the late 80s and early 90s. Thirty years later we’re still really not there yet and LeapMotion fell completely flat already.
  - MetaWhirledPeas 5y ago
    The difference is, 30 years ago we did not have viable VR consumer devices for sale. They might not be "iPhone" popular, but they exist now. I liken this to the MP3 player years before the iPod launch.
gpm 5y ago
> Too many people get motion sickness from it and I don't think it's only a matter of more pixels/fps. What do you think it's a matter of then? I guess I would add latency to the list, but those 3 metrics seem to capture the difference in visual perception between vr and the real world?
- Miraste 5y ago
  There are a lot of differences, some of which cause more discomfort than others. Color and contrast are two smaller ones; VR headsets aren't HDR yet and it really shows when trying for realism. There is also focal length, which is fixed (generally at 2 meters) in VR and creates discomfort, especially when reading. Facebook has eye tracking and motorized varifocal lenses to deal with this, but they're too big and loud and they haven't been able to put them in commercial headsets.
- Agentlien 5y ago
  I'm someone who's used a fair bit of VR. I never really got motion sick, but initially (a few weeks) I did feel somewhat disoriented and at one point almost lost my balance. For me what caused it was the dissonance between what my eyes and my inner ear were telling me regarding my movement and orientation. However, I've noticed that with time my brain seems to have learned that VR is a different mode. I no longer get dizzy from it, but I feel a strange numb feeling in the back of my head. It's like my mind knows not to trust my eyes anymore for balance when in VR.
  - krapp 5y ago
    I've tried to use VR on a treadmill and immediately regretted it every time. It's too bad, because I would really like to be able to do virtual walking tours of places while on the treadmill, but as soon as the camera moves anywhere but where I'm looking at the time, I want to vomit.
  - gpm 5y ago
    That strikes me as a software design problem, you can make movement in VR 1-1 with the real world, for many non-game's it makes a lot of sense to do that. Maybe also a latency problem (a big part of why it's in the list above).
throwaway3699 5y ago
The sickness thing has been solved on the hardware side. It's only software that is the issue. Remember when FPS games would never take off because they gave people motion sickness?
- nottorp 5y ago
  Well, my one data point is i never got sick from a FPS (anything from Wolfenstein for Dos till the present) but I did get sick when I borrowed a PSVR for a weekend. Couldn't use it more than 20-30 mins no matter what i tried, and i had a stack of different games with it to try. Maybe Occulus does it better, I'll never know though.
  - alert0 5y ago
    I get motion sick from Minecraft and nothing else. I have thousands of hours in other FPS, even watching someone else play Minecraft in person makes me nauseous.
  - throwaway3699 5y ago
    Well, I mean, people used to feel queasy after classic FPS games back in the day, but generally people adapted. I expect VR will be similar.
Xplune13 5y ago
AR has a long way to go for sure, but I am more interested in AR than I am in VR and I think AR has the potential to go far beyond what VR achieved till now.
reportingsjr 5y ago
> If we're talking AR on phones, where's the killer app? Off the top of my head, some very big ideas that are being worked on: * Clothing fit without actually going to a store and trying things on. * Construction assistance (being able to know where things are in walls, being able to measure things accurately in 3 dimensions, check out the leica RTC360) * Furniture arrangements or additions in a home. e.g. use the ikea app to plop down a SÖDERHAMN to see how it would work and look in your space. * See what a room would look like with different paint. I've actually tried this with an app on my iPad recently, and it is still a little glitchy, but was really freaking cool vs using paint swatches or buying test pints of paint. * Troubleshooting and repair. I tried out this really cool app last year called inspectAR (https://www.inspectar.com/ https://www.inspectar.com/). The desktop app was mindblowing and at my last job when I did lots of circuit board repair/manufacturing adjustments this would have been insanely useful! I can only imagine how nice this would be to have on a trip to Shenzhen for troubleshooting production issues. Beyond this, yes, games are a huge potential for AR. Brush it aside as something unimportant since it isn't "useful" or whatever, but games are a huge part of people's lives at this point. I've been waiting for a company called TiltFive which basically spun out of valve to launch their AR hardware, it looks and sounds really impressive. The list goes well past this, but AR has some serious potential.
- shock-value 5y ago
  The things in your first paragraph are all useful, but not killer apps (IMO). Just nice conveniences. My prediction is that Pokemon Go will prove to be by far the biggest splash to have been made in the phone AR space, and in the larger scheme of gaming it so far hasn't been more than a long-since-passed fad. I'm pretty doubtful that even glasses-mounted AR will catch on among consumers in day-to-day life -- but there could be significant specific use cases e.g. education, certain professions, etc. On-the-job type stuff. Having experienced VR as an owner of a Quest 2 linked to a VR capable PC -- I'm very bullish on VR in the home entertainment space -- not just games but also pre-recorded or live video content, etc. Not sure about social but I'm sure Facebook will try.
  - nottorp 5y ago
nr2x 5y ago
The book rainbows end by Vernon vinge had some really intriguing ideas about AR. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End
- nottorp 5y ago
  Gibson's Virtual Light is about a stolen pair of AR glasses. Charlie Stross's Accelerando has a chapter where the main character is basically crippled because ... he lost his AR glasses and can't function without the info in them. Last one is available online: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/accelerando/accelerando-intro.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/fiction/accelera...
  - nr2x 5y ago
    Really not a fan of virtual light personally, Accelerando on the other hand is a very fun ride.
ctvo 5y ago
> I don't think VR will ever take over the world. Too many people get motion sickness from it and I don't think it's only a matter of more pixels/fps. To think they won't solve motion sickness (or N other teething issues), like it's general AI vs. a problem of incremental improvement is a little short sighted.
tailspin2019 5y ago
> I don't think VR will ever take over the world. Too many people get motion sickness from it I imagine similar things were send about planes in the early 1900s. "It's not natural!" But in all seriousness I think they'll solve this (motion sickness) one way or another.
- nottorp 5y ago
  I don't know, it seems much bearable to get airsick during a finite flight than to get a VR headset when you know that it will always get you sick. Maybe I sound more sceptical than I am. The second they put out a VR system that doesn't make me sick (and isn't linked to Facebook) I'll be queueing for one. I'm just not sure when that will happen.
danaris 5y ago
The killer app for AR isn't going to be on phones. It's going to come when (and, I suppose, if) the hardware gets small enough that it can be integrated into glasses that are comparable in weight and bulk to current prescription eyeglasses (and, ideally, can actually incorporate prescription lenses, for those of us who need those to see every day). At that point, the "killer app" becomes the ability to augment your own senses and memory with, for instance, facial recognition that reminds you of who this person is, useful facts you know about them, etc. Or walking or driving directions that are overlaid directly on your view of the actual paths/streets/etc. Or even virtual tours of places—either places you're physically in, or places you're nowhere near, but have a space of comparable size you can walk around in! The danger, as we saw with Google Glass, is twofold: on the one hand, allowing an unregulated tech titan like Google or Facebook to have access to cameras attached to people's faces; and on the other hand, the fear of allowing anyone to walk around with an always-on (or potentially always-on) camera, whether its recordings ever left the device or not.

xenihn 5y ago

Oculus uses Android. What are they using their own OS for, and what is it called?

dougmwne 5y ago
It may be based on Android, but without Google Services, it's just an open source OS they can base their custom distro for Oculus off of.

spideymans 5y ago

I cannot imagine that Facebook will be able to compete with whatever Apple has planned in the AR space. Every platform advantage that made the Apple Watch incredibly difficult to compete with will be so much more important with AR. This is particularly evident when considering Apple's lead in silicon, which will allow Apple's AR products to be lighter, faster and longer lasting than their competitors. Apple's vertical integration means that there should be more AR "apps" and better software integration than any of their competitors. Apple's pro-privacy push means that consumers will be far more willing to strap Apple branded AR glasses to their face all day. Facebook might be able to out-compete Apple in VR (silicon performance and efficiency is not as critical for VR), however VR likely will not have the same mainstream appeal that AR will have.

dougmwne 5y ago
I believe the key moment that Facebook is racing towards is an AR conversation with a loved one sitting across the table from you, as there and present as real life. We'll see if Apple can get there first.