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Here is a classic case of someone conflating the state of Israel and Jewish people and lumping it all together. Plenty of Jewish people that live both inside a

Here is a classic case of someone conflating the state of Israel and Jewish people and lumping it all together. Plenty of Jewish people that live both inside and outside of Israel are critical of the state. People can be critical of the state of Israel, but they should not be antisemitic. His comments are offensive for this reason.

tootie 5y ago
Being Jewish is also multi-tiered because it's associated with both a religion and an ethnicity. I'd love to popularize being thought of Ashkenazi and not Jewish. I don't have a familial bond with Israel for probably 17 centuries and I don't really care if I ever did. My culture is more strongly associated with Eastern Europe and we were run out of town on a rail 100 years ago.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  The popular understanding of Jewish in America is Ashkenazi
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    The average American doesn't know an Ashkenazi from an alpaca.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Yes, but the average American also thinks of an Ashkenazi Jew when they think of a Jew, and has no idea that Sephardim & mizrahim even exist, even if they don't know the words for any of it.
      - chitowneats 5y ago
        OP's point is to refer to these people as Ashkenazi. To think of them as that, instead of (or perhaps in addition to) as Jewish. My point is we are a long way away from that, despite how many Ashkenazi Jews live in the US.
  - tootie 5y ago
    My point being that the word "Ashkenazi" is still not understood by most people.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- siculars 5y ago
  If you were your ancestors who were "run out of town on a rail" you would care very, very deeply about your familial bond to Israel. Like yours, my family was run out of town. Unlike yours, many in my family did not run fast enough. If only there was a place they could run to either as first resort or when quota had been reached in other places. If only there was a place that could make running a specific people out of town a very costly pursuit for those who were making those people run. Israel is and will always remain the eternal Homeland of the Jewish people. Am Yisrael Chai.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    There are plenty of non-zionist people who survived the Holocaust, it is disingenuous to paint caring about Israel as the natural, inevitable reaction to the Holocaust. The whole concept of having a natural "homeland" because of your DNA/ethnicity/race is bullshit, land doesn't care what color your skin is or what religion you practice.
    - dalbasal 5y ago
      The majority were not zionist, including my family. The Holocaust changed that. The premise of zionism was never "having a natural "homeland" because of your DNA." The premise of Zionism was that Jews could not stay in Europe, particularly in the age of nation states. Most commonly, this was referred to as "The Jewish Question." The majority of secular Jews believed in emancipation. The majority of religious jews believed that only god could create the Jewish state. They were also skeptical of Zionism's desire for secular Jewish identity. That said, my grandparents never referred to themselves as zionists. Before the war, zionism just meant "want a jewish state to exist." Foreign politicians (eg Churchill) were referred to as zionist for this reason. After the war, it generally meant exuberance about zionists political ideologies of the time. Founding Kibbutz, farming, hebrew language revival, etc. "Zionists" wanted to take hebrew names, for example. Today, "zionist" just means Israeli patriotism.
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        The Holocaust definitely changed how the majority of people felt, but it doesn't mean that I can't be critical of that sentiment. Bundism also continued to exist after the Holocaust, albeit in a diminished form. "premise of Zionism was that Jews could not stay in Europe" -> the creation of a state where citizenship is granted explicitly on the basis of your ethnicity, in the form of a "right of return" is 100% the premise I suggested.
- dalbasal 5y ago
  Ashkenazi is just an old hebrew word for German. If you strip away both Germany (the HRE, more specifically), and Judaism then the term doesn't have much meaning. At least, not as an identity that people have assumed historically. Ashkenazi Jews before the war just called themselves Jews, with secular emancipationists often appending nationality.
  - Mediterraneo10 5y ago
    The etymology of the word "Ashkenazi" is irrelevant (argument from etymology is a fallacy), as for a long time now the word has been used in a different, wider meaning. And Ashkenazi is a valid distinction versus e.g. Sephardi Jews: Ashkenazi Jews used a different reading for Hebrew, adopted different codes of dress, employed different structures of doctrinal authority and hermeneutics of Scripture, etc. Naturally under the Ashkenazi umbrella there were people of different cultures (and different degrees of assimilation to the surrounding non-Jewish population), but those Jews were still more similar to one another than to non-Ashkenazi Jews.
    - dalbasal 5y ago
      I'm not arguing the etymology. I'm just saying that "Ashkenazi, as a demonym would be a new idea historically. I have no problem with people forming new identities. It's also not about accent. There are distinct Sephardic reading styles. It's not technically doctrinally different either, at least formally. In religious terms, distinctions are termed is "customary/minhagim" which are lower on the hierarchy. In any case, etymology is not far off the mark. Ashkenazi judaism isn't just named after germany, it originated in the HRE and Ashkenazim spoke a German dialect. My grandmother was a native polish speaker, secular, and would not have identified as "askenazi" before the war. She identified as polish, strongly, and was as comfortable in a sephardic synagogue as an ashkenazi one. My grandfather, a Yiddish speaker, was more comfortable in an ashkenazi synagogue. Most are mixed, these days, whatever the majority is.
- eli_gottlieb 5y ago
  >I'd love to popularize being thought of Ashkenazi and not Jewish. This is Orientalist as fuck.
cdot2 5y ago
I think this guy just doesn't like jews
- ttt0 5y ago
  Or he's just against jewish privilege and systemic jewish supremacy
- tgv 5y ago
  Possibly, but the second statement points at the contrast between being a Jew and being an Israeli. For the "global lead on diversity strategy and research" of one the world's giant corporations, it's remarkably insensitive, of course, but then again, written 13 years ago.
bitcharmer 5y ago
> People can be critical of the state of Israel Sadly the moment you call out Israel's human rights violations and ethnic cleansing you get automatically branded as antisemitic on all major social media and by most mainstream outlets too.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  You must be on a different social media outlet than I am.
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    You are in a tread this very moment that shows proof of his opinion.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      In what way? Most people here seem to agree that it is perfectly possible to criticize Israel without being anti-semitic.
      - Dah00n 5y ago
        We'll have to agree to disagree as I have yet to see an example of this on HN. In my experience 100% of submissions (and comments) critical of Israel gets spammed by people saying it is antisemitism.
      - stinos 5y ago
        Most but not all apparently, though I don't think it's as bad as the one you reply to seems to imply. E.g. there's already some 'a lot of anti-Israel is also antisemitism' sentiment creeping in in some comments, without data to back that up.
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        > Most but not all Sorry, why is it a "social media" problem if there isn't unanimous agreement on a certain issue in the comments?
gadders 5y ago
>>People can be critical of the state of Israel, but they should not be antisemitic. As long as you (the general you, not you specifically) subject all countries that (allegedly) mistreat their citizens or neighbouring countries to the same level of criticism. When you single out the world's only Jewish state for criticism it looks kinda racist.
- KittenInABox 5y ago
  South Africa's Apartheid was condemned as human injustice, so should Israel's Apartheid, no?
  - logicchains 5y ago
    In what way are Israeli arabs treated differently under Israel law than Israeli Jews?
    - KittenInABox 5y ago
      Israel heavily disputed its responsibility to help with vaccination efforts of the same arabs of the territory it's annexing, so yeah, that's not great.
      - gadders 5y ago
        Israel offered its vaccines to the Palestinian Authority, and the PA refused them.
    - anonbecause80 5y ago
      That's sort of like asking in what way are African-Americans treated differently under US law. Sure, the law may appear to be equal for all legal members of society, but that doesn't mean in practice it works like that. The settlement doctrine, removal of Arabic as an official language, and language specifically about Israel being Jewish that were passed in 2018 are also instances where the law actually does diverge for Arab citizens. [1] There's a pretty decent breakdown of why Israel officially meets the international requirements to be considered an Apartheid state here as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MknerYjob0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MknerYjob0w [1]https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-n...
literallyWTF 5y ago
This is by design. Israel and spent years associating the _state_ of Israel with Judaism. That way you can’t criticize Israel without being labeled and anti-Jewish semite. Nothing he posted was offensive. Israel is an apartheid state
- ciisforsuckas 5y ago
  and billions of dollars
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  > Nothing he posted was offensive. > “If I were a Jew I would be concerned about my insatiable appetite for war and killing in defense of myself” How about that?
  - literallyWTF 5y ago
    As I said, Israel conflates being a Jew with the state of Israel. And as such, people associate Israel with Judaism. That’s not offensive if it’s by design. You can’t have your cake and eat it to. Israel is an apartheid state.
    - AndrewUnmuted 5y ago
      Anyone writing something so inflammatory ought to approach this topic with more nuance though. If you're willing to write that you should also be willing to get it right, from a purely factual perspective.
    - myfavoritedog 5y ago
      It doesn't matter how much Israel attempts to conflate Zionism with Judaism. Pre-judging all Jews because of it is antisemitic.
    - mistermann 5y ago
      > You can’t have your cake and eat it to. With skillful public relations and political lobbying you can, at least to a very large degree.
jewnotzionist 5y ago
That is, of course, true. However part of the problem is that zionists within the state of Israel work really hard to blur this distinction. You can see for example arguments being made in that sense in this debate here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VTt_THL4A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VTt_THL4A Or the French parliament deciding that anti-Zionism is antisemitism: https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/french-parliament-decides-anti-zionism-is-antisemitism-609764 https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/french-parliamen... Even within Israel there are of course fringe groups (e.g. Naturei Karta) and such, but unfortunately, the reality is that while it wouldn't suit most Jews for Judaism to be conflated with Zionism, it suits most zionists, so they try to further that notion. Edit: To be clear I'm addressing the Judaism x Zionism aspect of this comment thread, not the blog post in the topic post.
- yonixw 5y ago
  Another part of the problem is when the criticizers forget that Zionism got a huge boost after pogroms on Jewish communities across Europe. So, by criticising Zionism in a middle of a self defense operation in Gaza (as they see it), you look like you don't know its roots and look like they ignoring the Jewish right for self defense.
  - duped 5y ago
    No one is forgetting the Holocaust or historic pogroms on Jews in Europe when they criticize Israeli military actions or forced displacement.
    - vxNsr 5y ago
      Speaking with these people on clubhouse recently, I can say they absolutely believe 1) Hitler was right, but (contradictorily) 2) The Holocaust/Progroms were exaggerated, and finally 3) there was never any instances of strife in the region before the forming of the state (and if there was it was always the Irgun and nobody else ever). I’m not saying all people who criticize Israel believe the above but many of the people in “The Balance” room who criticized Israel appeared to.
myfavoritedog 5y ago
People can be critical of the state of Israel, but they should not be antisemitic. Theoretically, I guess, but it's really strange how the one tiny country in the whole world that has a Jewish-dominated society is so often a target for complete destruction. Many of the same countries that have all but eliminated their own Jewish populations somehow find Israel's very existence to be unpalatable, going after them in the UN, in their state-sponsored media, and through military/terroristic acts. So, sure. You could be critical of Israel but not be antisemitic. But as a matter of probability, a lot of people who criticize Israel are also antisemitic.
- kmonsen 5y ago
  That’s a huge straw man. I am critical of some of Israel’s behavior, but by no means calling for its complete destruction.
  - bern4444 5y ago
    I believe you, but too many people use the line, I'm not antisemitic, I'm just criticizing the government as a scapegoat to excuse obvious antisemitic behavior.
    - Retric 5y ago
      ‘too many’ is rather shifting the goalposts here. The vast majority of people are criticizing the government not the population. It’s unusual for people to consider a nation’s population rather than their government because a nation’s population is largely irrelevant. It’s not random Americans that have a history of overthrowing democratically elected governments, it’s the US government that does so etc. Israel’s government, like all governments, does plenty of things people disagree with and as such often gets legitimate criticism on it’s own merits.
      - bern4444 5y ago
        Sure, but Americans aren't randomly attacked when abroad or out doing normal things, like getting food out or drinks. And yet, Jews are today. It wasn't too long ago that people marched in Charlottesville chanting jews will not replace us. Now there's a massive rise in violence
hamilyon2 5y ago
I am sorry to point that out, but this argument is true about almost anything. Most russians have nothing to do with putin's regime and it's hackers. Those hackers' nationality may not even be russian. Yet, "russian hackers". There are scientists deeply upset with state of official science, indians disagreeing with what fellow indians do, and so on.
Aunche 5y ago
The author may have a valid point, but expressed it in a condescending manner. If a Jewish diversity officer wrote a blog post saying "If I were black, I would prioritize fixing black-on-black crime" as a criticism of BLM, would you give them the same defense? That said, it's still a dumb thing to be cancelled over. Everyone has been an asshole to someone else at some point in our lives. Why do people feel the need to socially shame people publicly for an offense over a decade ago?
- loveistheanswer 5y ago
  >Why do people feel the need to socially shame people publicly for an offense over a decade ago? Because they're playing a game of Moral Supremacy one-upsmanship. In the long run, everyone who plays this game must lose, because were all humans. But in the short term this game can be quite lucrative in terms of attention getting, internet points, and money.
loveistheanswer 5y ago
Can you quote where exactly they are "conflating the state of Israel and Jewish people and lumping it all together."? >Plenty of Jewish people that live both inside and outside of Israel are critical of the state. Is this not exactly what this thought experiment of an article is talking about? Trying to put themselves on the shoes of a Jewish person who is critical of Israels politics
colordrops 5y ago
Honest question here - how do you criticize Judaism the religion without being called a bigot? Christians and Muslims are fair game for discourse. Is the Jewish religion and its followers not fair to criticize? They have many of the same arcane and backwards beliefs as other Abrahamic religions.
- 6321throwaway 5y ago
  > To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize. — Voltaire
- Zababa 5y ago
  I don't know how to answer your question, but a thing to keep in mind is that Jewish people are usually less than 1% or 2% of the population. For example (in France), I'm worried about Christian and especially Muslim homophobia, but Jewish not so much because it's way easier to navigate around. I don't even have anecdotal evidence of Jewish presence or absence of homophobia because I didn't meet many of them. Edit because I realized I may not have been clear: what I mean is that in a lot of country Christian and Muslims are in power. For Jewish people, it's the case in one country, and there's not much big minorities like there are Muslim minorities in Chrisian countries and the opposite.
zpeti 5y ago
Israel, a nation with a strong national identity, a small nation not a multinational organisation, generally governed by right wing governments, hugely successful in terms of meritocracy, good entrepreneurial spirit. Filled with a nation of people persecuted for millenia, who have been victims of racism forever, who yet become massively successful, and don't act like victims. Yes, I understand it's a ridiculously annoying example that counters every woke left ideal. Can't blame the woke for being anti semitic.
- bushbaba 5y ago
  Asians and Jews have both faced discrimination based on their academic success. What happened in the recent past to American Jews on university quotas and discrimination is now happening to Asian Americans. The issue is both cases showcase upwards mobility by investing in your future generations. Going against the left belief social mobility is dead.
koheripbal 5y ago
His bigotry goes beyond that. Kamau Bobb's blog posts were almost exclusively about White and Jewish people, and the theme throughout is the mistreatment by them of Black Americans. There is a very clear tone of distaste for white and Jewish people in his posts. Search for the word "white" or "Jew" in his blog [1] posts to see for yourself. [1] http://kamaubobb.blogspot.com/ http://kamaubobb.blogspot.com/ Since Google supports "cancel culture", Kamau Bobb needs to be fired. > The cost of elite education for our children is extraordinary. I dropped my beautiful black star into a sea of white children and it hurt. > among the increasing number of white women holding leadership roles in the academy and in the public and private sector, they surely see younger versions of themselves in the next generation of white girls. It is a natural instinct to want the very best for them. > In a nation with a history such as ours, that imagery is connected to a much longer and darker legacy – a legacy where white men have abused black women and girls with impunity. > I do not need to be convinced that diversity and excellence are intimately interwoven. But what of my White counterparts? I really do not know how White people learn about Black or Hispanic people in ways that are honest > Perhaps it is time to focus the inquiry on our White counterparts. They may well feel marginalized by the shortage of academic inquiry into the complexity of their changing American citizenship alongside people of color. Their sense of self-efficacy may be undermined by their pending loss of majority status. > I was learning about the resilient spirit of black people in America in the context of white American barbarism. > It is still true that white people kill black people in America with impunity. ...and he's been accused of racism before: http://kamaubobb.blogspot.com/2011/08/accused-of-being-racist.html http://kamaubobb.blogspot.com/2011/08/accused-of-being-racis... It goes on and on...
SEJeff 5y ago
Precisely. Being jewish does not mean you are a zionist. Being a zionist does not mean you are jewish (many evangelicals in the US's "south" are staunch zionists). You can want the palestinians to have basic human rights and still be pro-Israeli state.
SrCodeMonkey 5y ago
Internal and external criticism is important and welcome, but when the only democratic country in the hostile region, that's constantly fighting for its existence, becomes the world's punching bag, you have to wonder why it is. Does UN's human rights council obsession with Israel [1], while turning a blind eye on real atrocities in murderous regimes like Iran, North Korea, Turkey, Russia, etc., makes sense to anyone with a common sense? BTW, I don't think most people who use the term Zionism in a negative context actually understand what it means. It's just the desire of Jews to live in its historic homeland - Israel, in a peaceful coexistence with its neighbors. [1] https://unwatch.org/updated-chart-of-all-unhrc-condemnations/ https://unwatch.org/updated-chart-of-all-unhrc-condemnations...
- megous 5y ago
  > It's just the desire of Jews to live in its historic homeland - Israel, in a peaceful coexistence with its neighbors. You're doing the same thing this Googler is accused of. Assigning some characteristic/desire to the whole class of people.
  - SrCodeMonkey 5y ago
    How so? I just gave the gist of the term Zionism, as described by Theodore Herzl, the father of the movement. The demonization of this innocent ideology is by itself a form of anti-Semitism, a modern one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
    - megous 5y ago
      Do all Jews want to live in their historic homeland?
      - SrCodeMonkey 5y ago
        Of course not, only those who choose to adopt this ideology, I didn't assume anything about ALL Jews. But that's not the point, my point is that those who identify as anti-Zionists either do not understand what Zionism means, or they are plain modern anti-Semites in a poor disguise.

tootie 5y ago

Being Jewish is also multi-tiered because it's associated with both a religion and an ethnicity. I'd love to popularize being thought of Ashkenazi and not Jewish. I don't have a familial bond with Israel for probably 17 centuries and I don't really care if I ever did. My culture is more strongly associated with Eastern Europe and we were run out of town on a rail 100 years ago.

whimsicalism 5y ago
The popular understanding of Jewish in America is Ashkenazi
- chitowneats 5y ago
  The average American doesn't know an Ashkenazi from an alpaca.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Yes, but the average American also thinks of an Ashkenazi Jew when they think of a Jew, and has no idea that Sephardim & mizrahim even exist, even if they don't know the words for any of it.
    - chitowneats 5y ago
      OP's point is to refer to these people as Ashkenazi. To think of them as that, instead of (or perhaps in addition to) as Jewish. My point is we are a long way away from that, despite how many Ashkenazi Jews live in the US.
- tootie 5y ago
  My point being that the word "Ashkenazi" is still not understood by most people.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
siculars 5y ago
If you were your ancestors who were "run out of town on a rail" you would care very, very deeply about your familial bond to Israel. Like yours, my family was run out of town. Unlike yours, many in my family did not run fast enough. If only there was a place they could run to either as first resort or when quota had been reached in other places. If only there was a place that could make running a specific people out of town a very costly pursuit for those who were making those people run. Israel is and will always remain the eternal Homeland of the Jewish people. Am Yisrael Chai.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  There are plenty of non-zionist people who survived the Holocaust, it is disingenuous to paint caring about Israel as the natural, inevitable reaction to the Holocaust. The whole concept of having a natural "homeland" because of your DNA/ethnicity/race is bullshit, land doesn't care what color your skin is or what religion you practice.
  - dalbasal 5y ago
    The majority were not zionist, including my family. The Holocaust changed that. The premise of zionism was never "having a natural "homeland" because of your DNA." The premise of Zionism was that Jews could not stay in Europe, particularly in the age of nation states. Most commonly, this was referred to as "The Jewish Question." The majority of secular Jews believed in emancipation. The majority of religious jews believed that only god could create the Jewish state. They were also skeptical of Zionism's desire for secular Jewish identity. That said, my grandparents never referred to themselves as zionists. Before the war, zionism just meant "want a jewish state to exist." Foreign politicians (eg Churchill) were referred to as zionist for this reason. After the war, it generally meant exuberance about zionists political ideologies of the time. Founding Kibbutz, farming, hebrew language revival, etc. "Zionists" wanted to take hebrew names, for example. Today, "zionist" just means Israeli patriotism.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      The Holocaust definitely changed how the majority of people felt, but it doesn't mean that I can't be critical of that sentiment. Bundism also continued to exist after the Holocaust, albeit in a diminished form. "premise of Zionism was that Jews could not stay in Europe" -> the creation of a state where citizenship is granted explicitly on the basis of your ethnicity, in the form of a "right of return" is 100% the premise I suggested.
dalbasal 5y ago
Ashkenazi is just an old hebrew word for German. If you strip away both Germany (the HRE, more specifically), and Judaism then the term doesn't have much meaning. At least, not as an identity that people have assumed historically. Ashkenazi Jews before the war just called themselves Jews, with secular emancipationists often appending nationality.
- Mediterraneo10 5y ago
  The etymology of the word "Ashkenazi" is irrelevant (argument from etymology is a fallacy), as for a long time now the word has been used in a different, wider meaning. And Ashkenazi is a valid distinction versus e.g. Sephardi Jews: Ashkenazi Jews used a different reading for Hebrew, adopted different codes of dress, employed different structures of doctrinal authority and hermeneutics of Scripture, etc. Naturally under the Ashkenazi umbrella there were people of different cultures (and different degrees of assimilation to the surrounding non-Jewish population), but those Jews were still more similar to one another than to non-Ashkenazi Jews.
  - dalbasal 5y ago
    I'm not arguing the etymology. I'm just saying that "Ashkenazi, as a demonym would be a new idea historically. I have no problem with people forming new identities. It's also not about accent. There are distinct Sephardic reading styles. It's not technically doctrinally different either, at least formally. In religious terms, distinctions are termed is "customary/minhagim" which are lower on the hierarchy. In any case, etymology is not far off the mark. Ashkenazi judaism isn't just named after germany, it originated in the HRE and Ashkenazim spoke a German dialect. My grandmother was a native polish speaker, secular, and would not have identified as "askenazi" before the war. She identified as polish, strongly, and was as comfortable in a sephardic synagogue as an ashkenazi one. My grandfather, a Yiddish speaker, was more comfortable in an ashkenazi synagogue. Most are mixed, these days, whatever the majority is.
eli_gottlieb 5y ago
>I'd love to popularize being thought of Ashkenazi and not Jewish. This is Orientalist as fuck.

cdot2 5y ago

I think this guy just doesn't like jews

ttt0 5y ago
Or he's just against jewish privilege and systemic jewish supremacy
tgv 5y ago
Possibly, but the second statement points at the contrast between being a Jew and being an Israeli. For the "global lead on diversity strategy and research" of one the world's giant corporations, it's remarkably insensitive, of course, but then again, written 13 years ago.

bitcharmer 5y ago

> People can be critical of the state of Israel Sadly the moment you call out Israel's human rights violations and ethnic cleansing you get automatically branded as antisemitic on all major social media and by most mainstream outlets too.

whimsicalism 5y ago
You must be on a different social media outlet than I am.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  You are in a tread this very moment that shows proof of his opinion.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    In what way? Most people here seem to agree that it is perfectly possible to criticize Israel without being anti-semitic.
    - Dah00n 5y ago
      We'll have to agree to disagree as I have yet to see an example of this on HN. In my experience 100% of submissions (and comments) critical of Israel gets spammed by people saying it is antisemitism.
    - stinos 5y ago
      Most but not all apparently, though I don't think it's as bad as the one you reply to seems to imply. E.g. there's already some 'a lot of anti-Israel is also antisemitism' sentiment creeping in in some comments, without data to back that up.
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        > Most but not all Sorry, why is it a "social media" problem if there isn't unanimous agreement on a certain issue in the comments?

gadders 5y ago

>>People can be critical of the state of Israel, but they should not be antisemitic. As long as you (the general you, not you specifically) subject all countries that (allegedly) mistreat their citizens or neighbouring countries to the same level of criticism. When you single out the world's only Jewish state for criticism it looks kinda racist.

KittenInABox 5y ago
South Africa's Apartheid was condemned as human injustice, so should Israel's Apartheid, no?
- logicchains 5y ago
  In what way are Israeli arabs treated differently under Israel law than Israeli Jews?
  - KittenInABox 5y ago
    Israel heavily disputed its responsibility to help with vaccination efforts of the same arabs of the territory it's annexing, so yeah, that's not great.
    - gadders 5y ago
      Israel offered its vaccines to the Palestinian Authority, and the PA refused them.
  - anonbecause80 5y ago
    That's sort of like asking in what way are African-Americans treated differently under US law. Sure, the law may appear to be equal for all legal members of society, but that doesn't mean in practice it works like that. The settlement doctrine, removal of Arabic as an official language, and language specifically about Israel being Jewish that were passed in 2018 are also instances where the law actually does diverge for Arab citizens. [1] There's a pretty decent breakdown of why Israel officially meets the international requirements to be considered an Apartheid state here as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MknerYjob0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MknerYjob0w [1]https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-n...

literallyWTF 5y ago

This is by design. Israel and spent years associating the _state_ of Israel with Judaism. That way you can’t criticize Israel without being labeled and anti-Jewish semite. Nothing he posted was offensive. Israel is an apartheid state

ciisforsuckas 5y ago
and billions of dollars
MattGaiser 5y ago
> Nothing he posted was offensive. > “If I were a Jew I would be concerned about my insatiable appetite for war and killing in defense of myself” How about that?
- literallyWTF 5y ago
  As I said, Israel conflates being a Jew with the state of Israel. And as such, people associate Israel with Judaism. That’s not offensive if it’s by design. You can’t have your cake and eat it to. Israel is an apartheid state.
  - AndrewUnmuted 5y ago
    Anyone writing something so inflammatory ought to approach this topic with more nuance though. If you're willing to write that you should also be willing to get it right, from a purely factual perspective.
  - myfavoritedog 5y ago
    It doesn't matter how much Israel attempts to conflate Zionism with Judaism. Pre-judging all Jews because of it is antisemitic.
  - mistermann 5y ago
    > You can’t have your cake and eat it to. With skillful public relations and political lobbying you can, at least to a very large degree.

jewnotzionist 5y ago

That is, of course, true. However part of the problem is that zionists within the state of Israel work really hard to blur this distinction. You can see for example arguments being made in that sense in this debate here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VTt_THL4A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1VTt_THL4A Or the French parliament deciding that anti-Zionism is antisemitism: https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/french-parliament-decides-anti-zionism-is-antisemitism-609764 https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/french-parliamen... Even within Israel there are of course fringe groups (e.g. Naturei Karta) and such, but unfortunately, the reality is that while it wouldn't suit most Jews for Judaism to be conflated with Zionism, it suits most zionists, so they try to further that notion. Edit: To be clear I'm addressing the Judaism x Zionism aspect of this comment thread, not the blog post in the topic post.

yonixw 5y ago
Another part of the problem is when the criticizers forget that Zionism got a huge boost after pogroms on Jewish communities across Europe. So, by criticising Zionism in a middle of a self defense operation in Gaza (as they see it), you look like you don't know its roots and look like they ignoring the Jewish right for self defense.
- duped 5y ago
  No one is forgetting the Holocaust or historic pogroms on Jews in Europe when they criticize Israeli military actions or forced displacement.
  - vxNsr 5y ago
    Speaking with these people on clubhouse recently, I can say they absolutely believe 1) Hitler was right, but (contradictorily) 2) The Holocaust/Progroms were exaggerated, and finally 3) there was never any instances of strife in the region before the forming of the state (and if there was it was always the Irgun and nobody else ever). I’m not saying all people who criticize Israel believe the above but many of the people in “The Balance” room who criticized Israel appeared to.

myfavoritedog 5y ago

People can be critical of the state of Israel, but they should not be antisemitic. Theoretically, I guess, but it's really strange how the one tiny country in the whole world that has a Jewish-dominated society is so often a target for complete destruction. Many of the same countries that have all but eliminated their own Jewish populations somehow find Israel's very existence to be unpalatable, going after them in the UN, in their state-sponsored media, and through military/terroristic acts. So, sure. You could be critical of Israel but not be antisemitic. But as a matter of probability, a lot of people who criticize Israel are also antisemitic.

kmonsen 5y ago
That’s a huge straw man. I am critical of some of Israel’s behavior, but by no means calling for its complete destruction.
- bern4444 5y ago
  I believe you, but too many people use the line, I'm not antisemitic, I'm just criticizing the government as a scapegoat to excuse obvious antisemitic behavior.
  - Retric 5y ago
    ‘too many’ is rather shifting the goalposts here. The vast majority of people are criticizing the government not the population. It’s unusual for people to consider a nation’s population rather than their government because a nation’s population is largely irrelevant. It’s not random Americans that have a history of overthrowing democratically elected governments, it’s the US government that does so etc. Israel’s government, like all governments, does plenty of things people disagree with and as such often gets legitimate criticism on it’s own merits.
    - bern4444 5y ago
      Sure, but Americans aren't randomly attacked when abroad or out doing normal things, like getting food out or drinks. And yet, Jews are today. It wasn't too long ago that people marched in Charlottesville chanting jews will not replace us. Now there's a massive rise in violence

hamilyon2 5y ago

I am sorry to point that out, but this argument is true about almost anything. Most russians have nothing to do with putin's regime and it's hackers. Those hackers' nationality may not even be russian. Yet, "russian hackers". There are scientists deeply upset with state of official science, indians disagreeing with what fellow indians do, and so on.

Aunche 5y ago

The author may have a valid point, but expressed it in a condescending manner. If a Jewish diversity officer wrote a blog post saying "If I were black, I would prioritize fixing black-on-black crime" as a criticism of BLM, would you give them the same defense? That said, it's still a dumb thing to be cancelled over. Everyone has been an asshole to someone else at some point in our lives. Why do people feel the need to socially shame people publicly for an offense over a decade ago?

loveistheanswer 5y ago
>Why do people feel the need to socially shame people publicly for an offense over a decade ago? Because they're playing a game of Moral Supremacy one-upsmanship. In the long run, everyone who plays this game must lose, because were all humans. But in the short term this game can be quite lucrative in terms of attention getting, internet points, and money.

loveistheanswer 5y ago

Can you quote where exactly they are "conflating the state of Israel and Jewish people and lumping it all together."? >Plenty of Jewish people that live both inside and outside of Israel are critical of the state. Is this not exactly what this thought experiment of an article is talking about? Trying to put themselves on the shoes of a Jewish person who is critical of Israels politics

colordrops 5y ago

Honest question here - how do you criticize Judaism the religion without being called a bigot? Christians and Muslims are fair game for discourse. Is the Jewish religion and its followers not fair to criticize? They have many of the same arcane and backwards beliefs as other Abrahamic religions.

6321throwaway 5y ago
> To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize. — Voltaire
Zababa 5y ago
I don't know how to answer your question, but a thing to keep in mind is that Jewish people are usually less than 1% or 2% of the population. For example (in France), I'm worried about Christian and especially Muslim homophobia, but Jewish not so much because it's way easier to navigate around. I don't even have anecdotal evidence of Jewish presence or absence of homophobia because I didn't meet many of them. Edit because I realized I may not have been clear: what I mean is that in a lot of country Christian and Muslims are in power. For Jewish people, it's the case in one country, and there's not much big minorities like there are Muslim minorities in Chrisian countries and the opposite.

zpeti 5y ago

Israel, a nation with a strong national identity, a small nation not a multinational organisation, generally governed by right wing governments, hugely successful in terms of meritocracy, good entrepreneurial spirit. Filled with a nation of people persecuted for millenia, who have been victims of racism forever, who yet become massively successful, and don't act like victims. Yes, I understand it's a ridiculously annoying example that counters every woke left ideal. Can't blame the woke for being anti semitic.

bushbaba 5y ago
Asians and Jews have both faced discrimination based on their academic success. What happened in the recent past to American Jews on university quotas and discrimination is now happening to Asian Americans. The issue is both cases showcase upwards mobility by investing in your future generations. Going against the left belief social mobility is dead.

koheripbal 5y ago

His bigotry goes beyond that. Kamau Bobb's blog posts were almost exclusively about White and Jewish people, and the theme throughout is the mistreatment by them of Black Americans. There is a very clear tone of distaste for white and Jewish people in his posts. Search for the word "white" or "Jew" in his blog [1] posts to see for yourself. [1] http://kamaubobb.blogspot.com/ http://kamaubobb.blogspot.com/ Since Google supports "cancel culture", Kamau Bobb needs to be fired. > The cost of elite education for our children is extraordinary. I dropped my beautiful black star into a sea of white children and it hurt. > among the increasing number of white women holding leadership roles in the academy and in the public and private sector, they surely see younger versions of themselves in the next generation of white girls. It is a natural instinct to want the very best for them. > In a nation with a history such as ours, that imagery is connected to a much longer and darker legacy – a legacy where white men have abused black women and girls with impunity. > I do not need to be convinced that diversity and excellence are intimately interwoven. But what of my White counterparts? I really do not know how White people learn about Black or Hispanic people in ways that are honest > Perhaps it is time to focus the inquiry on our White counterparts. They may well feel marginalized by the shortage of academic inquiry into the complexity of their changing American citizenship alongside people of color. Their sense of self-efficacy may be undermined by their pending loss of majority status. > I was learning about the resilient spirit of black people in America in the context of white American barbarism. > It is still true that white people kill black people in America with impunity. ...and he's been accused of racism before: http://kamaubobb.blogspot.com/2011/08/accused-of-being-racist.html http://kamaubobb.blogspot.com/2011/08/accused-of-being-racis... It goes on and on...

SEJeff 5y ago

Precisely. Being jewish does not mean you are a zionist. Being a zionist does not mean you are jewish (many evangelicals in the US's "south" are staunch zionists). You can want the palestinians to have basic human rights and still be pro-Israeli state.

SrCodeMonkey 5y ago

Internal and external criticism is important and welcome, but when the only democratic country in the hostile region, that's constantly fighting for its existence, becomes the world's punching bag, you have to wonder why it is. Does UN's human rights council obsession with Israel [1], while turning a blind eye on real atrocities in murderous regimes like Iran, North Korea, Turkey, Russia, etc., makes sense to anyone with a common sense? BTW, I don't think most people who use the term Zionism in a negative context actually understand what it means. It's just the desire of Jews to live in its historic homeland - Israel, in a peaceful coexistence with its neighbors. [1] https://unwatch.org/updated-chart-of-all-unhrc-condemnations/ https://unwatch.org/updated-chart-of-all-unhrc-condemnations...

megous 5y ago
> It's just the desire of Jews to live in its historic homeland - Israel, in a peaceful coexistence with its neighbors. You're doing the same thing this Googler is accused of. Assigning some characteristic/desire to the whole class of people.
- SrCodeMonkey 5y ago
  How so? I just gave the gist of the term Zionism, as described by Theodore Herzl, the father of the movement. The demonization of this innocent ideology is by itself a form of anti-Semitism, a modern one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism
  - megous 5y ago
    Do all Jews want to live in their historic homeland?
    - SrCodeMonkey 5y ago
      Of course not, only those who choose to adopt this ideology, I didn't assume anything about ALL Jews. But that's not the point, my point is that those who identify as anti-Zionists either do not understand what Zionism means, or they are plain modern anti-Semites in a poor disguise.