6 ms·

No, not all the criminals are in the gangs. Nearly everyone in the neighbourhood was a criminal of some sort. Everyone else just kept their mouth shut.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
"Everyone else" was probably a criminal too of some sort. They just hadn't received enough police scrutiny to make it official. It's basically impossible to follow all the laws (even ignoring the civil infraction stuff) all the time and live a reasonable life.
- OJFord 5y ago
  Especially if you live in a country with the word 'jaywalking'...
  - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
    ̶I̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶j̶a̶y̶w̶a̶l̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶ ̶c̶r̶i̶m̶i̶n̶a̶l̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶r̶y̶.̶ edit: This is mistaken.
    - OJFord 5y ago
      Then what is it, in any country that has the word? (Here we call it 'crossing the road'.)
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        A civil infraction (or some other word for the same thing). Like walking your dog in a park that has a no-dogs sign.
        OJFord 5y ago
        That would be a local bye-law, which is neither criminal nor civil but could become criminal.
    - duckfang 5y ago
      https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/jaywalking-arrest-black-teens-oklahoma-review-71179261 https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/jaywalking-arrest-black-... https://www.wxyz.com/news/local-news/investigations/stopped-for-jaywalking-a-detroit-man-spent-3-days-in-jail-he-was-charged-with-nothing https://www.wxyz.com/news/local-news/investigations/stopped-... https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/beaten-tased-and-arrested-jaywalking-while-black https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/reforming-poli... https://www.redmond-reporter.com/news/redmond-police-arrest-man-on-skateboard-after-jaywalking-failing-to-stop/ https://www.redmond-reporter.com/news/redmond-police-arrest-...
      - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
        I'm aware you can be arrested for it in the US (which is to say I'm mistaken, it does fall under criminal law), but can it get you a criminal record? Somewhat related: here in the UK, littering is technically a crime, but apparently [0] you'll only get a criminal record if you refuse to pay the fine. [0] https://www.redbridge.gov.uk/roads-and-pavements/fines-and-offences/ https://www.redbridge.gov.uk/roads-and-pavements/fines-and-o...
        teachrdan 5y ago
        Here in California, jaywalking is an infraction, not a crime. Jaywalkers (who are caught) have to pay a fine. It can basically be considered getting sued by the city for breaking the rules. If you can't pay the fine, it can turn into a warrant that can get you arrested. Thus jaywalking actually is a crime, but only for poor people.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > If you can't pay the fine, it can turn into a warrant that can get you arrested. Technically, inability to pay does not have this effect, only refusal. But you have to actually show up to court (as specified in the ticket, which is a summons to appear with bail that can be forfeited in lieu of appearance) and assert hardship to get a different penalty or payment arrangement set if you are unable to pay; if you just ignore the summons and don’t pay the bail set, then you are committing a crime.
  - jbjohns 5y ago
    Where I live we have jaywalking laws but they only apply if you are within a reasonable distance to a cross walk. I think it's possible to have reasonable laws so long as you have relatively reasonable politicians. :)
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Jaywalking is typically (i.e. I know of now jurisdiction in the west where it's not) a civil infraction. Though if the cops want to be dicks they can pretend not to know and arrest you but they can do that with any law or they can get you for a nebulous contempt of cop offense but they can do that anytime. It's on-par with a parking ticket, littering or not removing your trash bin from the street after trash day. If you don't pay the fine (and don't show up in court to tell them why you can't afford it) that's the criminal infraction and that's when they put a warrant out.
    - OJFord 5y ago
      > Jaywalking is typically (i.e. I know of now jurisdiction in the west where it's not) In the UK it doesn't even exist. We look it up after hearing the word on N American 'movies'/TV 'shows'. > a civil infraction IANAL, but my understanding is that the key difference between criminal & civil law is that the latter always has a (an alleged) victim, and it is he who is the claimant. Is that wrong? Or right but there's some supposed victim of 'jaywalking' (the state on behalf of drivers?!) who goes around suing 'jaywalkers'?
- Jcowell 5y ago
  A criminal is not some who allegedly breaks laws but someone who is convicted of breaking the law. Even if you were arrested by police you still aren’t a criminal.
  - stretchwithme 5y ago
    If a person is committing crimes, they're a criminal.
    - optimiz3 5y ago
      Allegedly. What is a transgression of the law and whether a law is just or valid can be open to interpretation, which is why we have juries.
      - stretchwithme 5y ago
        No. If I had said someone allegedly committed a crime, they allegedly are a criminal. If I see them murdering someone, I'm not going to say to myself "That person is allegedly a criminal". I am allowed to think, to have an opinion about reality. There's also no need to call them a suspect if you just saw a person committing a crime. When you haven't yet proved that a specific person did it, they're a suspect. The crime is alleged. But not when you KNOW it. I'm not saying newspapers should say that or a court should say that. I'm saying I have no problem describing what I see.
        nojokes 5y ago
        > If I see them murdering someone, I'm not going to say to myself "That person is allegedly a criminal". Maybe you saw wrong? Hmm?
        netizen-936824 5y ago
        Oh not him! His eyesight and memory are infallible!

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

"Everyone else" was probably a criminal too of some sort. They just hadn't received enough police scrutiny to make it official. It's basically impossible to follow all the laws (even ignoring the civil infraction stuff) all the time and live a reasonable life.

OJFord 5y ago
Especially if you live in a country with the word 'jaywalking'...
- MaxBarraclough 5y ago
  ̶I̶ ̶d̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶n̶k̶ ̶j̶a̶y̶w̶a̶l̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶i̶d̶e̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶ ̶c̶r̶i̶m̶i̶n̶a̶l̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶e̶n̶c̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶n̶t̶r̶y̶.̶ edit: This is mistaken.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    Then what is it, in any country that has the word? (Here we call it 'crossing the road'.)
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      A civil infraction (or some other word for the same thing). Like walking your dog in a park that has a no-dogs sign.
      - OJFord 5y ago
        That would be a local bye-law, which is neither criminal nor civil but could become criminal.
  - duckfang 5y ago
    https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/jaywalking-arrest-black-teens-oklahoma-review-71179261 https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/jaywalking-arrest-black-... https://www.wxyz.com/news/local-news/investigations/stopped-for-jaywalking-a-detroit-man-spent-3-days-in-jail-he-was-charged-with-nothing https://www.wxyz.com/news/local-news/investigations/stopped-... https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/reforming-police/beaten-tased-and-arrested-jaywalking-while-black https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-reform/reforming-poli... https://www.redmond-reporter.com/news/redmond-police-arrest-man-on-skateboard-after-jaywalking-failing-to-stop/ https://www.redmond-reporter.com/news/redmond-police-arrest-...
    - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
      I'm aware you can be arrested for it in the US (which is to say I'm mistaken, it does fall under criminal law), but can it get you a criminal record? Somewhat related: here in the UK, littering is technically a crime, but apparently [0] you'll only get a criminal record if you refuse to pay the fine. [0] https://www.redbridge.gov.uk/roads-and-pavements/fines-and-offences/ https://www.redbridge.gov.uk/roads-and-pavements/fines-and-o...
      - teachrdan 5y ago
        Here in California, jaywalking is an infraction, not a crime. Jaywalkers (who are caught) have to pay a fine. It can basically be considered getting sued by the city for breaking the rules. If you can't pay the fine, it can turn into a warrant that can get you arrested. Thus jaywalking actually is a crime, but only for poor people.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > If you can't pay the fine, it can turn into a warrant that can get you arrested. Technically, inability to pay does not have this effect, only refusal. But you have to actually show up to court (as specified in the ticket, which is a summons to appear with bail that can be forfeited in lieu of appearance) and assert hardship to get a different penalty or payment arrangement set if you are unable to pay; if you just ignore the summons and don’t pay the bail set, then you are committing a crime.
- jbjohns 5y ago
  Where I live we have jaywalking laws but they only apply if you are within a reasonable distance to a cross walk. I think it's possible to have reasonable laws so long as you have relatively reasonable politicians. :)
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Jaywalking is typically (i.e. I know of now jurisdiction in the west where it's not) a civil infraction. Though if the cops want to be dicks they can pretend not to know and arrest you but they can do that with any law or they can get you for a nebulous contempt of cop offense but they can do that anytime. It's on-par with a parking ticket, littering or not removing your trash bin from the street after trash day. If you don't pay the fine (and don't show up in court to tell them why you can't afford it) that's the criminal infraction and that's when they put a warrant out.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    > Jaywalking is typically (i.e. I know of now jurisdiction in the west where it's not) In the UK it doesn't even exist. We look it up after hearing the word on N American 'movies'/TV 'shows'. > a civil infraction IANAL, but my understanding is that the key difference between criminal & civil law is that the latter always has a (an alleged) victim, and it is he who is the claimant. Is that wrong? Or right but there's some supposed victim of 'jaywalking' (the state on behalf of drivers?!) who goes around suing 'jaywalkers'?
Jcowell 5y ago
A criminal is not some who allegedly breaks laws but someone who is convicted of breaking the law. Even if you were arrested by police you still aren’t a criminal.
- stretchwithme 5y ago
  If a person is committing crimes, they're a criminal.
  - optimiz3 5y ago
    Allegedly. What is a transgression of the law and whether a law is just or valid can be open to interpretation, which is why we have juries.
    - stretchwithme 5y ago
      No. If I had said someone allegedly committed a crime, they allegedly are a criminal. If I see them murdering someone, I'm not going to say to myself "That person is allegedly a criminal". I am allowed to think, to have an opinion about reality. There's also no need to call them a suspect if you just saw a person committing a crime. When you haven't yet proved that a specific person did it, they're a suspect. The crime is alleged. But not when you KNOW it. I'm not saying newspapers should say that or a court should say that. I'm saying I have no problem describing what I see.
      - nojokes 5y ago
        > If I see them murdering someone, I'm not going to say to myself "That person is allegedly a criminal". Maybe you saw wrong? Hmm?
        netizen-936824 5y ago
        Oh not him! His eyesight and memory are infallible!