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I would rather pay someone to take my turn for me. There’s a whole theory of competitive advantage [0] where I’m better doing some things than others. I’d rath

I would rather pay someone to take my turn for me. There’s a whole theory of competitive advantage [0] where I’m better doing some things than others. I’d rather do the thing I’m good at and use the money to pay others to do stuff I’m marginally worse off doing. I’ve lived in communities for a few decades and every day it crosses my mind that I want to establish a price for someone to come clean my toilet. [0] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.as...

throw0101a 5y ago
> I would rather pay someone to take my turn for me. You're not wrong, but it's not (all) about efficiency but rather about solidarity and social cohesion. As an example, in Japan, children clean the school: * https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2001/11/30/lifestyle/kids-get-down-to-classroom-clean-ups-2/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2001/11/30/lifestyle/kids-... * https://www.thejapanguy.com/japanese-kids-clean-their-classrooms/ https://www.thejapanguy.com/japanese-kids-clean-their-classr... * https://www.quora.com/How-do-Japanese-students-feel-about-the-cleaning-their-own-school-rooms-and-toilets https://www.quora.com/How-do-Japanese-students-feel-about-th...
southerntofu 5y ago
> I would rather pay someone to take my turn for me. Yeah, that's precisely what's wrong in our society that it appears normal to pay for inconveniences to disappear. Except of course for most of us who don't have money so we get paid shitty wages for making other people's inconveniences disappear. If such jobs were the highest paid, that would be less of a problem of course. But the highest paid jobs under capitalism are the least useful to society at large because they don't produce anything (CEOs, managers, financial/legal advisors, marketers, etc). > I’m better doing some things than others. That makes sense. However some tasks such as cleaning are not skilled labor. Yes it requires (some) learning, but by the second time you've cleaned a toilet you pretty much know how to do it for the rest of your life. Cleaning a single toilet takes about 5 minutes and is not much effort (contrary to doing that for a living)That makes sense. However some tasks such as cleaning are not skilled labor. Yes it requires (some) learning, but by the second time you've cleaned a toilet you pretty much know how to do it for the rest of your life. Cleaning a single toilet takes about 5 minutes and is not much effort (contrary to doing that for a living). Have you considered why you're so reluctant to do it? > I’ve lived in communities (...) my toilet We're probably not living in the same kinds of communities then if you've got a personal toilet. In the communities i've resided in everybody's got their personal room but everything else is communal.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  > Except of course for most of us who don't have money so we get paid shitty wages for making other people's inconveniences disappear. If such jobs were the highest paid, that would be less of a problem of course. But the highest paid jobs under capitalism are the least useful to society at large because they don't produce anything (CEOs, managers, financial/legal advisors, marketers, etc). This might be able to be rectified under the current system by giving money to the lowest paid, so that they can go to school and learn a trade which they find has a more acceptable price:undesirability ratio. Ideally, everyone will have the option to not have to do tasks like cleaning toilets, and hence everyone will have to do it themselves or pay a lot to get someone else to do it.
- muttled 5y ago
  >Have you considered why you're so reluctant to do it? It's funny, I had a conversation with a roommate that went something like I said I hated dishes, and that I'd rather be outside in the cold, under the car lifted on jackstands, draining the oil and replacing it and servicing the oil filter, coming back in and cleaning up. For both our cars. And my roommate seemed shocked. It seemed like such a bigger task to them than just quickly cleaning the dishes and throwing them in a rack to dry. But I just hate doing the dishes. And I don't mind changing the oil in the car.
- prepend 5y ago
  > that's precisely what's wrong in our society that it appears normal to pay for inconveniences to disappear. I disagree, it’s what is awesome about our society. It’s a feature, not a bug. I’ve gotten all the character I’ll get from cleaning toilets and I’m happy that someone else is willing to do it for me. There’s no way toilet cleaner will be a high paying job because the skill set is so low. As with most manual labor. Low skill set means lots of people will do it means low wages. I understand how to clean a toilet and the time involved. I choose not to do it. I won’t make me a better person to do it. I have considered why I’m reluctant and understand pretty completely. I grok why I don’t want to clean toilets. I’m comfortable with my understanding in this area. It’s also ok that we value these experiences differently. I don’t have to convince you to pay someone to clean your toilet. I just have to convince you to continue letting me, and others, pay for toilet cleaning.
Applejinx 5y ago
When my parents were alive, in their retirement, they'd hire 'Merry Maids' to come and clean for them. As near as I could tell, they were very nice about it, and I remember being over there and the amusing interplay as the maids tried very hard to not impose on the family visiting going on, while the kids tried just as hard to arrange where they were at to not get in the way of the maids :) it was a very Alphonse and Gaston, 'oh no, after you!' sort of thing. I feel like the real litmus test here is: given that the maid is cleaning your toilet, would you freak out if the maid took a dump in your toilet AND then cleaned it? That cuts to the heart of whether they're a fellow human doing exchange-value with you as a true equal, or whether they're a class that should not be using the employer's private toilet. I would bet you maid services like that are very strict about not blurring that line, knowing that some people are paying to set up a class dynamic they expect to be honored.
- prepend 5y ago
  > would you freak out if the maid took a dump in your toilet AND then cleaned it? That cuts to the heart of whether they're a fellow human doing exchange-value with you as a true equal, or whether they're a class that should not be using the employer's private toilet. Ha, no of course not. I also think it’s not a very good test because almost no one would care. Me not being able to afford to buy things or not being skilled enough to command a high wage doesn’t mean I’m not equal as a human being, it just means I can’t afford things. I would expect that maid services are very strict because some people are super picky about their toilets. I know people who won’t let family members use their toilet, much less some stranger. It’s not worth the risk for a maid service to lose the work. Not really a good indicator of valuing humans. Maybe a better test would be whether I allow a maid to drink from my water or something like that.

throw0101a 5y ago

> I would rather pay someone to take my turn for me. You're not wrong, but it's not (all) about efficiency but rather about solidarity and social cohesion. As an example, in Japan, children clean the school: * https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2001/11/30/lifestyle/kids-get-down-to-classroom-clean-ups-2/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2001/11/30/lifestyle/kids-... * https://www.thejapanguy.com/japanese-kids-clean-their-classrooms/ https://www.thejapanguy.com/japanese-kids-clean-their-classr... * https://www.quora.com/How-do-Japanese-students-feel-about-the-cleaning-their-own-school-rooms-and-toilets https://www.quora.com/How-do-Japanese-students-feel-about-th...

southerntofu 5y ago

> I would rather pay someone to take my turn for me. Yeah, that's precisely what's wrong in our society that it appears normal to pay for inconveniences to disappear. Except of course for most of us who don't have money so we get paid shitty wages for making other people's inconveniences disappear. If such jobs were the highest paid, that would be less of a problem of course. But the highest paid jobs under capitalism are the least useful to society at large because they don't produce anything (CEOs, managers, financial/legal advisors, marketers, etc). > I’m better doing some things than others. That makes sense. However some tasks such as cleaning are not skilled labor. Yes it requires (some) learning, but by the second time you've cleaned a toilet you pretty much know how to do it for the rest of your life. Cleaning a single toilet takes about 5 minutes and is not much effort (contrary to doing that for a living)That makes sense. However some tasks such as cleaning are not skilled labor. Yes it requires (some) learning, but by the second time you've cleaned a toilet you pretty much know how to do it for the rest of your life. Cleaning a single toilet takes about 5 minutes and is not much effort (contrary to doing that for a living). Have you considered why you're so reluctant to do it? > I’ve lived in communities (...) my toilet We're probably not living in the same kinds of communities then if you've got a personal toilet. In the communities i've resided in everybody's got their personal room but everything else is communal.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
> Except of course for most of us who don't have money so we get paid shitty wages for making other people's inconveniences disappear. If such jobs were the highest paid, that would be less of a problem of course. But the highest paid jobs under capitalism are the least useful to society at large because they don't produce anything (CEOs, managers, financial/legal advisors, marketers, etc). This might be able to be rectified under the current system by giving money to the lowest paid, so that they can go to school and learn a trade which they find has a more acceptable price:undesirability ratio. Ideally, everyone will have the option to not have to do tasks like cleaning toilets, and hence everyone will have to do it themselves or pay a lot to get someone else to do it.
muttled 5y ago
>Have you considered why you're so reluctant to do it? It's funny, I had a conversation with a roommate that went something like I said I hated dishes, and that I'd rather be outside in the cold, under the car lifted on jackstands, draining the oil and replacing it and servicing the oil filter, coming back in and cleaning up. For both our cars. And my roommate seemed shocked. It seemed like such a bigger task to them than just quickly cleaning the dishes and throwing them in a rack to dry. But I just hate doing the dishes. And I don't mind changing the oil in the car.
prepend 5y ago
> that's precisely what's wrong in our society that it appears normal to pay for inconveniences to disappear. I disagree, it’s what is awesome about our society. It’s a feature, not a bug. I’ve gotten all the character I’ll get from cleaning toilets and I’m happy that someone else is willing to do it for me. There’s no way toilet cleaner will be a high paying job because the skill set is so low. As with most manual labor. Low skill set means lots of people will do it means low wages. I understand how to clean a toilet and the time involved. I choose not to do it. I won’t make me a better person to do it. I have considered why I’m reluctant and understand pretty completely. I grok why I don’t want to clean toilets. I’m comfortable with my understanding in this area. It’s also ok that we value these experiences differently. I don’t have to convince you to pay someone to clean your toilet. I just have to convince you to continue letting me, and others, pay for toilet cleaning.

Applejinx 5y ago

When my parents were alive, in their retirement, they'd hire 'Merry Maids' to come and clean for them. As near as I could tell, they were very nice about it, and I remember being over there and the amusing interplay as the maids tried very hard to not impose on the family visiting going on, while the kids tried just as hard to arrange where they were at to not get in the way of the maids :) it was a very Alphonse and Gaston, 'oh no, after you!' sort of thing. I feel like the real litmus test here is: given that the maid is cleaning your toilet, would you freak out if the maid took a dump in your toilet AND then cleaned it? That cuts to the heart of whether they're a fellow human doing exchange-value with you as a true equal, or whether they're a class that should not be using the employer's private toilet. I would bet you maid services like that are very strict about not blurring that line, knowing that some people are paying to set up a class dynamic they expect to be honored.

prepend 5y ago
> would you freak out if the maid took a dump in your toilet AND then cleaned it? That cuts to the heart of whether they're a fellow human doing exchange-value with you as a true equal, or whether they're a class that should not be using the employer's private toilet. Ha, no of course not. I also think it’s not a very good test because almost no one would care. Me not being able to afford to buy things or not being skilled enough to command a high wage doesn’t mean I’m not equal as a human being, it just means I can’t afford things. I would expect that maid services are very strict because some people are super picky about their toilets. I know people who won’t let family members use their toilet, much less some stranger. It’s not worth the risk for a maid service to lose the work. Not really a good indicator of valuing humans. Maybe a better test would be whether I allow a maid to drink from my water or something like that.