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> Are there sufficient people interested in ... ? There's people interested in caring for others and/or growing food on the countryside. Cleaning toilets is a

> Are there sufficient people interested in ... ? There's people interested in caring for others and/or growing food on the countryside. Cleaning toilets is a task nobody does by pleasure but i don't see a reason there should be a specific class in society handling undesired tasks for the others. Why can't we take turns doing what HAS TO be done? I've lived in communities for about two decades now and it's never ever crossed our mind we should designate someone to clean the toilets for others. I'm happy to do it every now and then if you're happy to do the same.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
> Why can't we take turns doing what HAS TO be done? What happens when someone does not take their turn?
- southerntofu 5y ago
  Depends on the reason. You may be temporarily/long-term disabled. Or maybe you were having a really bad week and you'll be happy to take your turn next week (maybe you even said so in advanced and arranged to swap your shift with somebody else?). Or maybe you just don't care to exploit other people you live with, in which case you're free to go and do that elsewhere because that's the norm in all of capitalist societies.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Why would someone that wants to exploit other people leave a place that lets them exploit others? I’ll cut to the chase. My point is your concept of society does not work at scale. You will have people that want to use the system, you will need to use force and adjudicate in the system, and you will need something more than good vibes to serve as incentives.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      > Why would someone that wants to exploit other people leave a place that lets them exploit others? Because we'll kick them out. I'm always up for doing things i don't particularly enjoy because there's value in them, but I certainly don't want to live with someone who treats me like a slave. > you will need something more than good vibes to serve as incentives Sure. But you'll probably concede that we live in a world run by psychopaths where children in schools are taught how to become psychopaths themselves. The first thing we teach children is "copying is cheating" and we're wondering why we're fucked? I'm not saying there's a time and place where everything will be perfect and we can all live happily ever after (i'm not a hippy), but there's very rational reasons for the ways everything around us is bad, and very rational courses of actions to fix those. Abolishing property as State-mandated religion doesn't mean that some people won't have more than others (this would be ridiculous). But at least it would mean that nobody would sleep on the streets while there are empty homes, and nobody would starve while there is wasted food. Both ridiculous situations are the consequence of private property and require considerable amounts of force and resources to apply. It obviously is not working at scale, as we can see from environmental damage and previously-unimaginable levels of inequality.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        > Because we'll kick them out. I'm always up for doing things i don't particularly enjoy because there's value in them, but I certainly don't want to live with someone who treats me like a slave. It’s hard enough to get many married couples to live like this, and even harder for small extended families. I would assign something very close to 0% as the probability for viability of this on a country or global level.
      - ycombobreaker 5y ago
        > The first thing we teach children is "copying is cheating" Sharing and cooperative play come long before anything resembling an individual assignment.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  They are ostracized or otherwise lose social status within the community. Functional human societies have existed and do exist in the absence of capitalism.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I do not know what definition of capitalism you are using, but I was strictly addressing the ability of society to function without compensation. I am not aware of any functional society exists today without the use of compensation on a notable scale, certainly not notable enough to be able to defend itself.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      To me that's moving the goal posts. There are plenty of nomadic and tribal societies out there that function the same way they have for thousands of years. Certainly our technologically advanced civilizations as they exist today are founded on capitalism, but I am not sure that is required, it has just become such an ingrained concept that "no one would ever do these unsavory tasks if we didn't threaten them with starvation and death" that we have difficulty imagining any other possibility.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      Considering that functional societies exist, regardless of their size and technological state, without monetary compensation as a primary motivation, I am forced to wonder how much our narrative that we cannot have technological civilization without forcing a class of people into handling unsavory tasks via threat of starvation and death is just part of the self-perpetuating mechanism of our particular societal organization structure.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Which societies today function like this, that could be scaled up to country level tasks and responsibilities? Regardless of size would make it a meaningless claim, as the parameters are greatly different between a tribe of 100 vs 10,000 vs 1,000,000,000.
prepend 5y ago
I would rather pay someone to take my turn for me. There’s a whole theory of competitive advantage [0] where I’m better doing some things than others. I’d rather do the thing I’m good at and use the money to pay others to do stuff I’m marginally worse off doing. I’ve lived in communities for a few decades and every day it crosses my mind that I want to establish a price for someone to come clean my toilet. [0] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.as...
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > I would rather pay someone to take my turn for me. You're not wrong, but it's not (all) about efficiency but rather about solidarity and social cohesion. As an example, in Japan, children clean the school: * https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2001/11/30/lifestyle/kids-get-down-to-classroom-clean-ups-2/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2001/11/30/lifestyle/kids-... * https://www.thejapanguy.com/japanese-kids-clean-their-classrooms/ https://www.thejapanguy.com/japanese-kids-clean-their-classr... * https://www.quora.com/How-do-Japanese-students-feel-about-the-cleaning-their-own-school-rooms-and-toilets https://www.quora.com/How-do-Japanese-students-feel-about-th...
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > I would rather pay someone to take my turn for me. Yeah, that's precisely what's wrong in our society that it appears normal to pay for inconveniences to disappear. Except of course for most of us who don't have money so we get paid shitty wages for making other people's inconveniences disappear. If such jobs were the highest paid, that would be less of a problem of course. But the highest paid jobs under capitalism are the least useful to society at large because they don't produce anything (CEOs, managers, financial/legal advisors, marketers, etc). > I’m better doing some things than others. That makes sense. However some tasks such as cleaning are not skilled labor. Yes it requires (some) learning, but by the second time you've cleaned a toilet you pretty much know how to do it for the rest of your life. Cleaning a single toilet takes about 5 minutes and is not much effort (contrary to doing that for a living)That makes sense. However some tasks such as cleaning are not skilled labor. Yes it requires (some) learning, but by the second time you've cleaned a toilet you pretty much know how to do it for the rest of your life. Cleaning a single toilet takes about 5 minutes and is not much effort (contrary to doing that for a living). Have you considered why you're so reluctant to do it? > I’ve lived in communities (...) my toilet We're probably not living in the same kinds of communities then if you've got a personal toilet. In the communities i've resided in everybody's got their personal room but everything else is communal.

lotsofpulp 5y ago

> Why can't we take turns doing what HAS TO be done? What happens when someone does not take their turn?

southerntofu 5y ago
Depends on the reason. You may be temporarily/long-term disabled. Or maybe you were having a really bad week and you'll be happy to take your turn next week (maybe you even said so in advanced and arranged to swap your shift with somebody else?). Or maybe you just don't care to exploit other people you live with, in which case you're free to go and do that elsewhere because that's the norm in all of capitalist societies.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Why would someone that wants to exploit other people leave a place that lets them exploit others? I’ll cut to the chase. My point is your concept of society does not work at scale. You will have people that want to use the system, you will need to use force and adjudicate in the system, and you will need something more than good vibes to serve as incentives.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    > Why would someone that wants to exploit other people leave a place that lets them exploit others? Because we'll kick them out. I'm always up for doing things i don't particularly enjoy because there's value in them, but I certainly don't want to live with someone who treats me like a slave. > you will need something more than good vibes to serve as incentives Sure. But you'll probably concede that we live in a world run by psychopaths where children in schools are taught how to become psychopaths themselves. The first thing we teach children is "copying is cheating" and we're wondering why we're fucked? I'm not saying there's a time and place where everything will be perfect and we can all live happily ever after (i'm not a hippy), but there's very rational reasons for the ways everything around us is bad, and very rational courses of actions to fix those. Abolishing property as State-mandated religion doesn't mean that some people won't have more than others (this would be ridiculous). But at least it would mean that nobody would sleep on the streets while there are empty homes, and nobody would starve while there is wasted food. Both ridiculous situations are the consequence of private property and require considerable amounts of force and resources to apply. It obviously is not working at scale, as we can see from environmental damage and previously-unimaginable levels of inequality.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      > Because we'll kick them out. I'm always up for doing things i don't particularly enjoy because there's value in them, but I certainly don't want to live with someone who treats me like a slave. It’s hard enough to get many married couples to live like this, and even harder for small extended families. I would assign something very close to 0% as the probability for viability of this on a country or global level.
    - ycombobreaker 5y ago
      > The first thing we teach children is "copying is cheating" Sharing and cooperative play come long before anything resembling an individual assignment.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
They are ostracized or otherwise lose social status within the community. Functional human societies have existed and do exist in the absence of capitalism.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I do not know what definition of capitalism you are using, but I was strictly addressing the ability of society to function without compensation. I am not aware of any functional society exists today without the use of compensation on a notable scale, certainly not notable enough to be able to defend itself.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    To me that's moving the goal posts. There are plenty of nomadic and tribal societies out there that function the same way they have for thousands of years. Certainly our technologically advanced civilizations as they exist today are founded on capitalism, but I am not sure that is required, it has just become such an ingrained concept that "no one would ever do these unsavory tasks if we didn't threaten them with starvation and death" that we have difficulty imagining any other possibility.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    Considering that functional societies exist, regardless of their size and technological state, without monetary compensation as a primary motivation, I am forced to wonder how much our narrative that we cannot have technological civilization without forcing a class of people into handling unsavory tasks via threat of starvation and death is just part of the self-perpetuating mechanism of our particular societal organization structure.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Which societies today function like this, that could be scaled up to country level tasks and responsibilities? Regardless of size would make it a meaningless claim, as the parameters are greatly different between a tribe of 100 vs 10,000 vs 1,000,000,000.

prepend 5y ago

I would rather pay someone to take my turn for me. There’s a whole theory of competitive advantage [0] where I’m better doing some things than others. I’d rather do the thing I’m good at and use the money to pay others to do stuff I’m marginally worse off doing. I’ve lived in communities for a few decades and every day it crosses my mind that I want to establish a price for someone to come clean my toilet. [0] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/comparativeadvantage.as...

throw0101a 5y ago
> I would rather pay someone to take my turn for me. You're not wrong, but it's not (all) about efficiency but rather about solidarity and social cohesion. As an example, in Japan, children clean the school: * https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2001/11/30/lifestyle/kids-get-down-to-classroom-clean-ups-2/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2001/11/30/lifestyle/kids-... * https://www.thejapanguy.com/japanese-kids-clean-their-classrooms/ https://www.thejapanguy.com/japanese-kids-clean-their-classr... * https://www.quora.com/How-do-Japanese-students-feel-about-the-cleaning-their-own-school-rooms-and-toilets https://www.quora.com/How-do-Japanese-students-feel-about-th...
southerntofu 5y ago
> I would rather pay someone to take my turn for me. Yeah, that's precisely what's wrong in our society that it appears normal to pay for inconveniences to disappear. Except of course for most of us who don't have money so we get paid shitty wages for making other people's inconveniences disappear. If such jobs were the highest paid, that would be less of a problem of course. But the highest paid jobs under capitalism are the least useful to society at large because they don't produce anything (CEOs, managers, financial/legal advisors, marketers, etc). > I’m better doing some things than others. That makes sense. However some tasks such as cleaning are not skilled labor. Yes it requires (some) learning, but by the second time you've cleaned a toilet you pretty much know how to do it for the rest of your life. Cleaning a single toilet takes about 5 minutes and is not much effort (contrary to doing that for a living)That makes sense. However some tasks such as cleaning are not skilled labor. Yes it requires (some) learning, but by the second time you've cleaned a toilet you pretty much know how to do it for the rest of your life. Cleaning a single toilet takes about 5 minutes and is not much effort (contrary to doing that for a living). Have you considered why you're so reluctant to do it? > I’ve lived in communities (...) my toilet We're probably not living in the same kinds of communities then if you've got a personal toilet. In the communities i've resided in everybody's got their personal room but everything else is communal.