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Maybe if we would question why we (don't) need money in the first place, and why people turn to terrorism, we wouldn't have problems in the first place. Let ev

Maybe if we would question why we (don't) need money in the first place, and why people turn to terrorism, we wouldn't have problems in the first place. Let everyone have a home, eat and drink as much as they need, receive proper education and healthcare, and thrive working for something they see interest in not a paycheck/boss and you'll see terrorism will be entirely rid of. In the meantime, i agree it's a reasonable expectation that people can exchange money freely with the caveat that there should be taxes. As much as i hate taxes because they will fund police terrorizing my neighborhood, big corporations for their next nature-destroying megaproject, and cameras everywhere in the big cities, they are important as long as we live in a capitalist system to ensure we have basic public services. A system like GNU/Taler is really interesting because it promises buyer's secrecy while retaining public accounting for receivers so that they can be subject to taxes. Cash is better of course as anonymity is guaranteed on both sides, and that's precisely why the chief scammers are pushing for the abolition of cash... so much of informal economy/solidarity would disappear overnight i'm having nightmares over it.

lotsofpulp 5y ago
> Let everyone have a home, eat and drink as much as they need, receive proper education and healthcare, and thrive working for something they see interest in not a paycheck/boss and you'll see terrorism will be entirely rid of. Are there sufficient people interested in cleaning toilets, dealing with the mentally ill/infirm, working in crawl spaces and attics, working on a farm an hour plus from everything?
- e_proxus 5y ago
  For a good (for some definitions of good) extra paycheck, I guess many would do more work. Want to buy a cool car? Do some cleaning on the side.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    The person I responded to was asking why compensation was needed at all for any task.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > Are there sufficient people interested in ... ? There's people interested in caring for others and/or growing food on the countryside. Cleaning toilets is a task nobody does by pleasure but i don't see a reason there should be a specific class in society handling undesired tasks for the others. Why can't we take turns doing what HAS TO be done? I've lived in communities for about two decades now and it's never ever crossed our mind we should designate someone to clean the toilets for others. I'm happy to do it every now and then if you're happy to do the same.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    > Why can't we take turns doing what HAS TO be done? What happens when someone does not take their turn?
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      Depends on the reason. You may be temporarily/long-term disabled. Or maybe you were having a really bad week and you'll be happy to take your turn next week (maybe you even said so in advanced and arranged to swap your shift with somebody else?). Or maybe you just don't care to exploit other people you live with, in which case you're free to go and do that elsewhere because that's the norm in all of capitalist societies.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        Why would someone that wants to exploit other people leave a place that lets them exploit others? I’ll cut to the chase. My point is your concept of society does not work at scale. You will have people that want to use the system, you will need to use force and adjudicate in the system, and you will need something more than good vibes to serve as incentives.
        southerntofu 5y ago
        > Why would someone that wants to exploit other people leave a place that lets them exploit others? Because we'll kick them out. I'm always up for doing things i don't particularly enjoy because there's value in them, but I certainly don't want to live with someone who treats me like a slave. > you will need something more than good vibes to serve as incentives Sure. But you'll probably concede that we live in a world run by psychopaths where children in schools are taught how to become psychopaths themselves. The first thing we teach children is "copying is cheating" and we're wondering why we're fucked? I'm not saying there's a time and place where everything will be perfect and we can all live happily ever after (i'm not a hippy), but there's very rational reasons for the ways everything around us is bad, and very rational courses of actions to fix those. Abolishing property as State-mandated religion doesn't mean that some people won't have more than others (this would be ridiculous). But at least it would mean that nobody would sleep on the streets while there are empty homes, and nobody would starve while there is wasted food. Both ridiculous situations are the consequence of private property and require considerable amounts of force and resources to apply. It obviously is not working at scale, as we can see from environmental damage and previously-unimaginable levels of inequality.
- grasshopperpurp 5y ago
  Imo flip these "punishment" jobs into "reward" jobs. As it is, we give the jobs no one wants to people who don't have any other options - or are struggling to exercise their options. We use them as boogeyman for kids when we remind them how important school is. If everyone is taken care of, these jobs should come with some extra benefits - both socially and financially. Remember all those bs commercials thanking essential workers toward the beginning of Covid? What if society really appreciated its essential workers and compensated them like it did? Cleaning toilets is somewhat unpleasant, but there's immediate feedback on your performance (the before and after is clear), and people should appreciate the people that keep them clean. There should be an understood, and spoken, sense of "Thank you" for the people keeping them clean. Perspective -> feeling - > actions. I don't think this is a particularly difficult issue to navigate, but it would require a shift in perspective.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    > What if society really appreciated its essential workers and compensated them like it did? The person I was responding to was arguing against compensation as a concept in general.
    - grasshopperpurp 5y ago
      Very fair. I don't think you can remove compensation. But, I think the post still had some good thoughts and good aims. They need some tweaking. Your post highlighted an area that needs tweaking, and mine tried to build on both posts.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        That tweak is a universal basic income (or other broad based benefits that establish a floor for quality of life) which would attempt to reduce the impact of one's lineage on one's options.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      What if monetary or material compensation was replaced with simple respect and appreciation though? As it is, the people who do the dirty jobs of society are often treated like they themselves are filth.
- seedie 5y ago
  An interesting question is how the salaries would shift. If everyone can fulfil basic needs without much, will the jobs that no ones interested in doing be the ones on a high pay grade? edit: just saw that you replied to "maybe money isn't needed at all" so my reply is not really relevant
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I thought it was common knowledge that the quality of life for people in the upper quintiles is based on the people in the lower quintiles not having options. Hence the hotels and fast food and other low paying fields complaint about not finding workers since the government gave them an option. If everyone was fluent in English and could type well, then the price of rote white collar office work would go down and the price of hard labor and public facing and more undesirable work would go up. Which is what has been happening in the last decade.
NoGravitas 5y ago
Love to see you being downvoted into invisibility for suggesting that Another World Is Possible. Our techbro overlords are aiming for Rentism, but they'll accept Exterminism if they can't get it.
losvedir 5y ago
> Let everyone have a home, eat and drink as much as they need, receive proper education and healthcare, and thrive working for something they see interest in not a paycheck/boss and you'll see terrorism will be entirely rid of. It's a nice thought, but I don't think this is actually true. Osama bin Laden and a number of the 9/11 hijackers were actually well-educated, well-off engineers of various sorts, for example.

lotsofpulp 5y ago

> Let everyone have a home, eat and drink as much as they need, receive proper education and healthcare, and thrive working for something they see interest in not a paycheck/boss and you'll see terrorism will be entirely rid of. Are there sufficient people interested in cleaning toilets, dealing with the mentally ill/infirm, working in crawl spaces and attics, working on a farm an hour plus from everything?

e_proxus 5y ago
For a good (for some definitions of good) extra paycheck, I guess many would do more work. Want to buy a cool car? Do some cleaning on the side.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  The person I responded to was asking why compensation was needed at all for any task.
southerntofu 5y ago
> Are there sufficient people interested in ... ? There's people interested in caring for others and/or growing food on the countryside. Cleaning toilets is a task nobody does by pleasure but i don't see a reason there should be a specific class in society handling undesired tasks for the others. Why can't we take turns doing what HAS TO be done? I've lived in communities for about two decades now and it's never ever crossed our mind we should designate someone to clean the toilets for others. I'm happy to do it every now and then if you're happy to do the same.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  > Why can't we take turns doing what HAS TO be done? What happens when someone does not take their turn?
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    Depends on the reason. You may be temporarily/long-term disabled. Or maybe you were having a really bad week and you'll be happy to take your turn next week (maybe you even said so in advanced and arranged to swap your shift with somebody else?). Or maybe you just don't care to exploit other people you live with, in which case you're free to go and do that elsewhere because that's the norm in all of capitalist societies.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Why would someone that wants to exploit other people leave a place that lets them exploit others? I’ll cut to the chase. My point is your concept of society does not work at scale. You will have people that want to use the system, you will need to use force and adjudicate in the system, and you will need something more than good vibes to serve as incentives.
      - southerntofu 5y ago
        > Why would someone that wants to exploit other people leave a place that lets them exploit others? Because we'll kick them out. I'm always up for doing things i don't particularly enjoy because there's value in them, but I certainly don't want to live with someone who treats me like a slave. > you will need something more than good vibes to serve as incentives Sure. But you'll probably concede that we live in a world run by psychopaths where children in schools are taught how to become psychopaths themselves. The first thing we teach children is "copying is cheating" and we're wondering why we're fucked? I'm not saying there's a time and place where everything will be perfect and we can all live happily ever after (i'm not a hippy), but there's very rational reasons for the ways everything around us is bad, and very rational courses of actions to fix those. Abolishing property as State-mandated religion doesn't mean that some people won't have more than others (this would be ridiculous). But at least it would mean that nobody would sleep on the streets while there are empty homes, and nobody would starve while there is wasted food. Both ridiculous situations are the consequence of private property and require considerable amounts of force and resources to apply. It obviously is not working at scale, as we can see from environmental damage and previously-unimaginable levels of inequality.
grasshopperpurp 5y ago
Imo flip these "punishment" jobs into "reward" jobs. As it is, we give the jobs no one wants to people who don't have any other options - or are struggling to exercise their options. We use them as boogeyman for kids when we remind them how important school is. If everyone is taken care of, these jobs should come with some extra benefits - both socially and financially. Remember all those bs commercials thanking essential workers toward the beginning of Covid? What if society really appreciated its essential workers and compensated them like it did? Cleaning toilets is somewhat unpleasant, but there's immediate feedback on your performance (the before and after is clear), and people should appreciate the people that keep them clean. There should be an understood, and spoken, sense of "Thank you" for the people keeping them clean. Perspective -> feeling - > actions. I don't think this is a particularly difficult issue to navigate, but it would require a shift in perspective.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  > What if society really appreciated its essential workers and compensated them like it did? The person I was responding to was arguing against compensation as a concept in general.
  - grasshopperpurp 5y ago
    Very fair. I don't think you can remove compensation. But, I think the post still had some good thoughts and good aims. They need some tweaking. Your post highlighted an area that needs tweaking, and mine tried to build on both posts.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      That tweak is a universal basic income (or other broad based benefits that establish a floor for quality of life) which would attempt to reduce the impact of one's lineage on one's options.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    What if monetary or material compensation was replaced with simple respect and appreciation though? As it is, the people who do the dirty jobs of society are often treated like they themselves are filth.
seedie 5y ago
An interesting question is how the salaries would shift. If everyone can fulfil basic needs without much, will the jobs that no ones interested in doing be the ones on a high pay grade? edit: just saw that you replied to "maybe money isn't needed at all" so my reply is not really relevant
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I thought it was common knowledge that the quality of life for people in the upper quintiles is based on the people in the lower quintiles not having options. Hence the hotels and fast food and other low paying fields complaint about not finding workers since the government gave them an option. If everyone was fluent in English and could type well, then the price of rote white collar office work would go down and the price of hard labor and public facing and more undesirable work would go up. Which is what has been happening in the last decade.

NoGravitas 5y ago

Love to see you being downvoted into invisibility for suggesting that Another World Is Possible. Our techbro overlords are aiming for Rentism, but they'll accept Exterminism if they can't get it.

losvedir 5y ago

> Let everyone have a home, eat and drink as much as they need, receive proper education and healthcare, and thrive working for something they see interest in not a paycheck/boss and you'll see terrorism will be entirely rid of. It's a nice thought, but I don't think this is actually true. Osama bin Laden and a number of the 9/11 hijackers were actually well-educated, well-off engineers of various sorts, for example.