6 ms·

It's not quite as simple as "it works like 'Lord of the Flies' or it doesn't". Nicholas Christakis, in his book "Blueprint", devotes a chapter to a database th

It's not quite as simple as "it works like 'Lord of the Flies' or it doesn't". Nicholas Christakis, in his book "Blueprint", devotes a chapter to a database that he and his grad students made of shipwrecks, where the survivors lived long enough, in enough isolation, that they had to more or less put together a temporary society. There were lots of cases where they turned on each other, and lots of cases where they did not. My review of Christakis' book, in case you're curious: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2851365787 https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2851365787

freehrtradical 5y ago
These are the type of fascinating comments that keep me coming back to HN. Thank you.
- mrslave 5y ago
  Book recommendations are especially high points for me. Thank you GP.
Andrex 5y ago
> There were lots of cases where they turned on each other, and lots of cases where they did not. The fact that it's a coin flip is the key aspect of the message Golding wanted to impart. It's chilling, and unsurprising, that reality bears it out.
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  The coin flip in the book is that they had two potential leaders, one of the responsible and the other one pretty sociopathic but charismatic - the nascent society followed the sociopathic, charismatic one. At any rate there were quite a few more kids than 6 in the book, so pointing at this incident and saying 'see, it would work out' is just silly.
  - grecy 5y ago
    ... sounds a lot like many democracies choosing a sociopathic but charismatic leader.
licebmi__at__ 5y ago
Nice review. In a sense I find this something akin to the late David Graeber point on it’s column about bulling. How you can find data pointing towards the human society propensity for violence, and also data of human society propensity for cooperation and refusal to engage on violence even when confronted with losing their way of living, although he also raises the point when historically there has been more propensity to consider only the violent ugly aspect, as you can almost certainly find it on people who appeal to “human nature”.
- watwut 5y ago
  It is not what is human. It is also, how you raise those kids. Ars you raising them in bully house boarding school full of abuse? You get different results then if you raise them with different values.
- dalbasal 5y ago
  IDK if its a modern bias or a recurring one, but people are very drawn to the idea of a core human "nature:" what we are when all the surface level stuff is stripped away. The way the conversations I've had tend to go is ever more contrived scenarios. Eventually it gets to spaceships carrying sperm and eggs to be raised cultureless by robots. You need to avoid scenarios like these, where the boys know about raising chickens, praying and stuff. lol As if a parentless, cultureless person is more human than the rest of us... more indicative of "true" human nature. Once we set to answering a question, it seems very hard to question the question.
  - thedmstdmstdmst 5y ago
    Yes of course, the natural course of development of humans is to do away with all other humans. Then you can be fully human.
  - MomoXenosaga 5y ago
    There is an idea that after the bombs fall we all turn into raping and pillaging marauders. I have no idea why people find this idea comforting. In reality villages will be built, laws written and religions made up.
anitil 5y ago
He was a guest on the 'Singal Minded' [0] podcast a while back as well and talked about his research. [0] https://singalmindedconvos.fireside.fm/7 https://singalmindedconvos.fireside.fm/7 I use the RSS feed but that's the link to the exact episode
- rossdavidh 5y ago
  Interesting, thanks for that!
lrem 5y ago
This review is obviously high effort. What's the incentive here? Is this what the community regularly does in Goodreads? Or are you somehow affiliated with the author and treat this as a favour?
- retrobox 5y ago
  Other reviews for this book on Goodreads are equally high effort. It’s not uncommon to see long and insightful reviews in the Goodreads community. I’d assume good intent :)
- kuu 5y ago
  I don't know why you're being downvoted when it's clear your question is out of curiosity. High effort reviews are common on Goodreads, why? Because it's a community about passionate readers and probably those who write the very detailed reviews have enjoyed reading some other reviews and want to contribute back to the community. I think it's the same reason as people contributes to wikipedia: for the sake of sharing knowledge
  - rezic 5y ago
    It does come across somewhat accusatory. Without the suggested affiliation with the author it would sound less so.
  - watwut 5y ago
    > I don't know why you're being downvoted when it's clear your question is out of curiosity. It is an odd question on the internet where people regularly and normally put a lot of effort into reviews, blog posts, discussion forums comments and so on. That coupled with question about affiliation probably makes people interpret is as not questions out of curiosity, but rather as sleazy way to introduce doubt on the author motivation.
    - lrem 5y ago
      Good point. That was not my intention. But my communication skills before caffeine digests are not where I would want them to be :/
gwbas1c 5y ago
> The attempt to infuse sociology with biological facts (e.g. genes matter, evolution still impacts humans, etc.) has been controversial (even today the term "sociobiology" is radioactive to some). My immediate reaction to your post was that maybe we could learn something about what causes societies to collapse, and learn something?
- lebuffon 5y ago
  Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed: Revised Edition, Diamond Interesting overview
  - rossdavidh 5y ago
    Seconded.
fighterpilot 5y ago
Did they find any variables that could explain whether or not the group turned on each other? e.g. resource abundance, gender makeup, age of people, N people, N days stranded, etc?
- rossdavidh 5y ago
  One important factor was, "did they sacrifice somebody early on?", for example in the actual evacuation from the ship. Once it is implanted in everyone's minds that individuals get sacrificed, it erodes trust, and makes everyone suspicious of everyone else. Of course, it's hard to distinguish between cause and effect in things like that. There's a lot of details in the details, though, you might want to read the whole thing! :)
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    That makes sense. Nobody has a monopoly on violence so everyone wants to front-run their own demise by killing the person that will kill them with a small but non-trivial probability. Pre-emptive violence becomes rational in such an environemnt.
david422 5y ago
The first review is by Bill Gates "Why do I love my wife, Melinda?" That didn't age well.

freehrtradical 5y ago

These are the type of fascinating comments that keep me coming back to HN. Thank you.

mrslave 5y ago
Book recommendations are especially high points for me. Thank you GP.

Andrex 5y ago

> There were lots of cases where they turned on each other, and lots of cases where they did not. The fact that it's a coin flip is the key aspect of the message Golding wanted to impart. It's chilling, and unsurprising, that reality bears it out.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago
The coin flip in the book is that they had two potential leaders, one of the responsible and the other one pretty sociopathic but charismatic - the nascent society followed the sociopathic, charismatic one. At any rate there were quite a few more kids than 6 in the book, so pointing at this incident and saying 'see, it would work out' is just silly.
- grecy 5y ago
  ... sounds a lot like many democracies choosing a sociopathic but charismatic leader.

licebmi__at__ 5y ago

Nice review. In a sense I find this something akin to the late David Graeber point on it’s column about bulling. How you can find data pointing towards the human society propensity for violence, and also data of human society propensity for cooperation and refusal to engage on violence even when confronted with losing their way of living, although he also raises the point when historically there has been more propensity to consider only the violent ugly aspect, as you can almost certainly find it on people who appeal to “human nature”.

watwut 5y ago
It is not what is human. It is also, how you raise those kids. Ars you raising them in bully house boarding school full of abuse? You get different results then if you raise them with different values.
dalbasal 5y ago
IDK if its a modern bias or a recurring one, but people are very drawn to the idea of a core human "nature:" what we are when all the surface level stuff is stripped away. The way the conversations I've had tend to go is ever more contrived scenarios. Eventually it gets to spaceships carrying sperm and eggs to be raised cultureless by robots. You need to avoid scenarios like these, where the boys know about raising chickens, praying and stuff. lol As if a parentless, cultureless person is more human than the rest of us... more indicative of "true" human nature. Once we set to answering a question, it seems very hard to question the question.
- thedmstdmstdmst 5y ago
  Yes of course, the natural course of development of humans is to do away with all other humans. Then you can be fully human.
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  There is an idea that after the bombs fall we all turn into raping and pillaging marauders. I have no idea why people find this idea comforting. In reality villages will be built, laws written and religions made up.

anitil 5y ago

He was a guest on the 'Singal Minded' [0] podcast a while back as well and talked about his research. [0] https://singalmindedconvos.fireside.fm/7 https://singalmindedconvos.fireside.fm/7 I use the RSS feed but that's the link to the exact episode

rossdavidh 5y ago
Interesting, thanks for that!

lrem 5y ago

This review is obviously high effort. What's the incentive here? Is this what the community regularly does in Goodreads? Or are you somehow affiliated with the author and treat this as a favour?

retrobox 5y ago
Other reviews for this book on Goodreads are equally high effort. It’s not uncommon to see long and insightful reviews in the Goodreads community. I’d assume good intent :)
kuu 5y ago
I don't know why you're being downvoted when it's clear your question is out of curiosity. High effort reviews are common on Goodreads, why? Because it's a community about passionate readers and probably those who write the very detailed reviews have enjoyed reading some other reviews and want to contribute back to the community. I think it's the same reason as people contributes to wikipedia: for the sake of sharing knowledge
- rezic 5y ago
  It does come across somewhat accusatory. Without the suggested affiliation with the author it would sound less so.
- watwut 5y ago
  > I don't know why you're being downvoted when it's clear your question is out of curiosity. It is an odd question on the internet where people regularly and normally put a lot of effort into reviews, blog posts, discussion forums comments and so on. That coupled with question about affiliation probably makes people interpret is as not questions out of curiosity, but rather as sleazy way to introduce doubt on the author motivation.
  - lrem 5y ago
    Good point. That was not my intention. But my communication skills before caffeine digests are not where I would want them to be :/

gwbas1c 5y ago

> The attempt to infuse sociology with biological facts (e.g. genes matter, evolution still impacts humans, etc.) has been controversial (even today the term "sociobiology" is radioactive to some). My immediate reaction to your post was that maybe we could learn something about what causes societies to collapse, and learn something?

lebuffon 5y ago
Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed: Revised Edition, Diamond Interesting overview
- rossdavidh 5y ago
  Seconded.

fighterpilot 5y ago

Did they find any variables that could explain whether or not the group turned on each other? e.g. resource abundance, gender makeup, age of people, N people, N days stranded, etc?

rossdavidh 5y ago
One important factor was, "did they sacrifice somebody early on?", for example in the actual evacuation from the ship. Once it is implanted in everyone's minds that individuals get sacrificed, it erodes trust, and makes everyone suspicious of everyone else. Of course, it's hard to distinguish between cause and effect in things like that. There's a lot of details in the details, though, you might want to read the whole thing! :)
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  That makes sense. Nobody has a monopoly on violence so everyone wants to front-run their own demise by killing the person that will kill them with a small but non-trivial probability. Pre-emptive violence becomes rational in such an environemnt.

david422 5y ago

The first review is by Bill Gates "Why do I love my wife, Melinda?" That didn't age well.