5 ms·

WASM is slowly, and inevitably becoming Java 2.0, or better to say a new Java VM sans Java.

emteycz 5y ago
Yes, that is more or less the goal - with the major difference being cross-industry collaboration - every major player is included and even the community has its word.
- kaba0 5y ago
  How is the JEP process not cross-industry collaboration with a significant community voice?
  - k__ 5y ago
    Didn't the Harmony disaster show that Java is a garbage fire?
    - kaba0 5y ago
      If you mean the Oracle v Google fiasco, it was a legal battle on whether it is legal to copy a significant part but not exactly the whole of what is called JavaTM. But Java is one of the few major languages that is standard-specified, not specified by the reference implementation, the reference impl. is completely open source, and the ecosystem is blooming. So, no? It is a huge platform running a very very significant chunk of all the backend servers.
      - emteycz 5y ago
        Exactly - while Wasm is meant to be much lighter and free of backwards compatibility, and thus hopefully actually safe
        kaba0 5y ago
        If it is actually free of backwards compatibility, then it will be instantly abandonware. I think you meant to write that it is new and shiny so it doesn’t yet have a need to decide between breaking change or backwards compatibility, but it will happen. We’ll see how they handle it. And safety has nothing to do with backwards compatibility, and the JVM is not unsafe at all against the attack vectors it is planned for.
        emteycz 5y ago
        Ok, why do you care anyways though? Java on the web failed, Wasm might too, but we won't know without trying. It's not the same thing, there are many differences especially in relation to lessons learned from Java and past 15 years of the web platform.
pjmlp 5y ago
There were plenty of VMs since the late 50's, even C and C++ have a couple for them (not talking about anything LLVM related).
- meepmorp 5y ago
  Yeah, but only the Java VM is relevant in a web context. WebAssembly is the new applets.
  - reader_mode 5y ago
    Not even remotely. WASM uses the same sandboxed DOM APIs JS does, that's a huge difference compared to Applets or ActiveX.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Almost, "Everything Old is New Again: Binary Security of WebAssembly" https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity20/presentation/lehmann https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity20/presentat...
      - reader_mode 5y ago
        From what I saw that's just about exploiting WASM memory within the sandbox - like they say "at wrost WASM can make a mess of it's own memory" and they show some implications of that. That's mildly interesting to me, you still need to go through DOM to do anything system related - you can't just read random files off of disk or use some system API to exploit other parts of the system. If API security is broken for WASM it's broken for JS as well. That's completely different from having a separate sandbox running as a native extension.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Except this is all about running outside the browser. The new applets was Flash with their new format that supported C++ as well, Silverlight and PNaCL.
enos_feedler 5y ago
WASM isn't slowly becoming anything. It already is everything.

Yes, that is more or less the goal - with the major difference being cross-industry collaboration - every major player is included and even the community has its word.

kaba0 5y ago
How is the JEP process not cross-industry collaboration with a significant community voice?
- k__ 5y ago
  Didn't the Harmony disaster show that Java is a garbage fire?
  - kaba0 5y ago
    If you mean the Oracle v Google fiasco, it was a legal battle on whether it is legal to copy a significant part but not exactly the whole of what is called JavaTM. But Java is one of the few major languages that is standard-specified, not specified by the reference implementation, the reference impl. is completely open source, and the ecosystem is blooming. So, no? It is a huge platform running a very very significant chunk of all the backend servers.
    - emteycz 5y ago
      Exactly - while Wasm is meant to be much lighter and free of backwards compatibility, and thus hopefully actually safe
      - kaba0 5y ago
        If it is actually free of backwards compatibility, then it will be instantly abandonware. I think you meant to write that it is new and shiny so it doesn’t yet have a need to decide between breaking change or backwards compatibility, but it will happen. We’ll see how they handle it. And safety has nothing to do with backwards compatibility, and the JVM is not unsafe at all against the attack vectors it is planned for.
        emteycz 5y ago
        Ok, why do you care anyways though? Java on the web failed, Wasm might too, but we won't know without trying. It's not the same thing, there are many differences especially in relation to lessons learned from Java and past 15 years of the web platform.

pjmlp 5y ago

There were plenty of VMs since the late 50's, even C and C++ have a couple for them (not talking about anything LLVM related).

meepmorp 5y ago
Yeah, but only the Java VM is relevant in a web context. WebAssembly is the new applets.
- reader_mode 5y ago
  Not even remotely. WASM uses the same sandboxed DOM APIs JS does, that's a huge difference compared to Applets or ActiveX.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Almost, "Everything Old is New Again: Binary Security of WebAssembly" https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity20/presentation/lehmann https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity20/presentat...
    - reader_mode 5y ago
      From what I saw that's just about exploiting WASM memory within the sandbox - like they say "at wrost WASM can make a mess of it's own memory" and they show some implications of that. That's mildly interesting to me, you still need to go through DOM to do anything system related - you can't just read random files off of disk or use some system API to exploit other parts of the system. If API security is broken for WASM it's broken for JS as well. That's completely different from having a separate sandbox running as a native extension.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  Except this is all about running outside the browser. The new applets was Flash with their new format that supported C++ as well, Silverlight and PNaCL.

enos_feedler 5y ago

WASM isn't slowly becoming anything. It already is everything.