4 ms·

To be honest, Google returning SO answers for something that is exactly not what I am looking for instead of language/library reference documentation as it used

To be honest, Google returning SO answers for something that is exactly not what I am looking for instead of language/library reference documentation as it used to is one the most annoying things for me as a developer today. Though I think that's mostly on Google "optimizing" my queries by dumbing them down. As an example, try looking for "python setattr" in your search engine of choice, and look for python.org documentation: none of them show it on the first page for me.

mechEpleb 5y ago
> Though I think that's mostly on Google "optimizing" my queries by dumbing them down. I'd say it's become a lot worse than it was just a couple years ago when you could massage the queries to get you exactly what you want. Now google seems to think it's more clever than you and turns every question into an entry level one.
dpedu 5y ago
I've found DuckDuckGo better for searching for specific terms or functions like this. OTOH, google seems better for more vague concepts (like "python add attribute").
noir_lord 5y ago
Zeal (if on Linux) or Dash (if on Mac) are a lifesaver for that stuff. It's ironic that I use Zeal so much but it really does just give me the answers quite often with less hassle than figuring out the search term to tell the search engine to get out the way!.
tdubhro1 5y ago
I’ve used Google’s custom search engine (cse) to help solve this, when working on a project, just make a cse with the main sources of official docs for the stack you’re using; instead of getting 20 possibly related questions with half solutions that you have to wade through, you get straight to the source docs. I guess it works best when those source docs are good, eg postgres, but it’s certainly been a big win for me
twic 5y ago
The third hit for me is https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html Maybe Googlebot is reading this thread.
- necovek 5y ago
  Remember that Google is not showing the results the same way to everyone. Maybe others near me are more likely to click on the SO response so I get that one ranked higher, and less likely to click on the reference documentation, so I get targeted the same way. Maybe if I let Google learn my patterns instead of disabling all the tracking I can, it'd give me better results. FWIW, I get similar results with DDG, but Google wins hands-down on non-English searches.
  - eyelidlessness 5y ago
    I’m still trying to train Google to stop giving me W3Schools results and... I don’t have high hopes.
cactus2093 5y ago
I also frequently run into the situation where I Google something, there is a perfect match on a SO question, but then the answer is "Actually, you don't want to do that thing you asked about, here is a different solution for your specific scenario". But often that alternative solution is not relevant in the general case, and there really are good reasons to want to do the thing as originally asked in the question. Basically there are all kinds of situations where the specific question/answer format is actually at odds with generating good long-term documentation. But that makes me all the more impressed with the success Stack Overflow has had. In my opinion their key insight is that it can be good enough. If I had come up with the idea for the product I probably would have been discouraged and given up way too early based on the fact that it is and will always be messy and imperfect.
- a1369209993 5y ago
  > there is a perfect match on a SO question, but then the answer is "Actually, you don't want to do that thing you asked about, here is a different solution for your specific scenario". That describes seemingly every Stack Overflow question I've found in the past four years. SO is basically useless for anything advanced enough to need SO.
  - jamesmontalvo3 5y ago
    Perhaps there’s a point at which you become advanced enough to not need SO. I’m certainly not there after a decade of software development. Do I have to dig a bit sometimes and go beyond the first few results on google? Sure. And if that doesn’t work I submit a question. I normally get an answer fairly quickly.
    - a1369209993 5y ago
      > Perhaps there's a point at which you become advanced enough to not need [something like] SO. Not really, no, which is why it's so infuriating when people ruin it with "How do I do X?" "You aren't supposed to do X, here let me tell you how to Y instead.". The HTML/regex Zalgo rant at least had some style, even if it was utterly useless at answering the question.
shadowgovt 5y ago
But if you're looking for something as specific as the documentation in Python itself for setattr, why wouldn't you do ``` > python Python 3.7.4 (default, Aug 13 2019, 20:35:49) [GCC 7.3.0] :: Anaconda, Inc. on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> help(setattr) ``` Or if you want the documentation on specifically Python.org, use Google search but type `setattr site:python.org` ?
kuang_eleven 5y ago
I just tried this, and the official python language docs came in third with SA just after. Now, for sure, it should be first, instead of the dumbed down tutorials, but it's certainly on the first page.
greggyb 5y ago
The sample you gave (and my experience in general) has official docs on the first page, but unfortunately below the fold. Top answers include various tutorial sites and an SO answer. Ninja edit: my default search engine is DDG.
OJFord 5y ago
> As an example, try looking for "python setattr" in your search engine of choice, !python setattr Or am I not allowed to add a character? :)
shpx 5y ago
On Chrome, go to chrome://settings/ Search for "search engines" Open "Manage search engines" Under "Other search engines" click on "Add" (on the right) Add this custom search engine: - Search engine: Python docs (first result) - Keyword: p - URL with %s in place of query: {google:baseURL}search?q=site:docs.python.org%2F3%2F+%s&btnI=I%27m+Feeling+Lucky Install the "Redirect Google Redirects" extension https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/redirect-google-redirects/nlacgjiklmjjejlgoclnjhndjaiempdo https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/redirect-google-re... (otherwise you'll see a "Redirect Notice" page) You can also add this search engine: - Python3 docs - pp - {google:baseURL}search?q=site%3Adocs.python.org%2F3%2F+%s Now, when you need to search for the Python documentation, just type "p setattr" and it'll go straight to https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html or you can search "pp setattr" and it'll show you the search results, filtered only for docs.python.org/3/
- Snarwin 5y ago
  Alternatively: set DuckDuckGo as your default search engine and type `!python setattr`.
- necovek 5y ago
  Thank you for your elaborate answer. Now please provide it for Firefox. And Postgresql. And Flask. Now I am using aiohttp here. SQLAlchemy please. Pytest. Sorry, now in the Rust world. Get me some MDN for Javascript. w3.org for CSS3 spec, pleaaaseee! You see where this is going? Python.org was an example to illustrate a point.
  - eyelidlessness 5y ago
    If you’re using a Mac, you might want to try Dash[1]. I’m sure similar tools exist on other platforms, but I’m not familiar enough to recommend them. 1: https://kapeli.com/dash https://kapeli.com/dash
  - shpx 5y ago
    I'm not responding to your criticism of Google Search. I'm suggesting to anyone who shares your sentiment something that improved my dev experience. I also use the uBlacklist extension to hide W3Schools et al. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmialoiaghdehhbnbhkkgmjanfhe https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmi... I actually make these whenever I get frustrated by Google a few times. I have "m" for MDN... It's not hard you just need to pick a keyword. How to modify the URL in the search string should be pretty obvious. I think you'll find you don't need them for every library. It's mostly general tools with large user bases, like Python, where people are trying to make a living shitting up the search results.
SAI_Peregrinus 5y ago
I see docs.python.org as result 9 (of 10) in duckduckgo. And there's a helper box at the top right, with the summary from and link to docs.python.org
- northwest65 5y ago
  7th on DDG for me.
aix1 5y ago
> try looking for "python setattr" in your search engine of choice, and look for python.org documentation: none of them show it on the first page for me. I was curious and tried exactly that. For me, Google returns python.org as the third hit, above Stack Overflow.

mechEpleb 5y ago

> Though I think that's mostly on Google "optimizing" my queries by dumbing them down. I'd say it's become a lot worse than it was just a couple years ago when you could massage the queries to get you exactly what you want. Now google seems to think it's more clever than you and turns every question into an entry level one.

dpedu 5y ago

I've found DuckDuckGo better for searching for specific terms or functions like this. OTOH, google seems better for more vague concepts (like "python add attribute").

noir_lord 5y ago

Zeal (if on Linux) or Dash (if on Mac) are a lifesaver for that stuff. It's ironic that I use Zeal so much but it really does just give me the answers quite often with less hassle than figuring out the search term to tell the search engine to get out the way!.

tdubhro1 5y ago

I’ve used Google’s custom search engine (cse) to help solve this, when working on a project, just make a cse with the main sources of official docs for the stack you’re using; instead of getting 20 possibly related questions with half solutions that you have to wade through, you get straight to the source docs. I guess it works best when those source docs are good, eg postgres, but it’s certainly been a big win for me

twic 5y ago

The third hit for me is https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html Maybe Googlebot is reading this thread.

necovek 5y ago
Remember that Google is not showing the results the same way to everyone. Maybe others near me are more likely to click on the SO response so I get that one ranked higher, and less likely to click on the reference documentation, so I get targeted the same way. Maybe if I let Google learn my patterns instead of disabling all the tracking I can, it'd give me better results. FWIW, I get similar results with DDG, but Google wins hands-down on non-English searches.
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
  I’m still trying to train Google to stop giving me W3Schools results and... I don’t have high hopes.

cactus2093 5y ago

I also frequently run into the situation where I Google something, there is a perfect match on a SO question, but then the answer is "Actually, you don't want to do that thing you asked about, here is a different solution for your specific scenario". But often that alternative solution is not relevant in the general case, and there really are good reasons to want to do the thing as originally asked in the question. Basically there are all kinds of situations where the specific question/answer format is actually at odds with generating good long-term documentation. But that makes me all the more impressed with the success Stack Overflow has had. In my opinion their key insight is that it can be good enough. If I had come up with the idea for the product I probably would have been discouraged and given up way too early based on the fact that it is and will always be messy and imperfect.

a1369209993 5y ago
> there is a perfect match on a SO question, but then the answer is "Actually, you don't want to do that thing you asked about, here is a different solution for your specific scenario". That describes seemingly every Stack Overflow question I've found in the past four years. SO is basically useless for anything advanced enough to need SO.
- jamesmontalvo3 5y ago
  Perhaps there’s a point at which you become advanced enough to not need SO. I’m certainly not there after a decade of software development. Do I have to dig a bit sometimes and go beyond the first few results on google? Sure. And if that doesn’t work I submit a question. I normally get an answer fairly quickly.
  - a1369209993 5y ago
    > Perhaps there's a point at which you become advanced enough to not need [something like] SO. Not really, no, which is why it's so infuriating when people ruin it with "How do I do X?" "You aren't supposed to do X, here let me tell you how to Y instead.". The HTML/regex Zalgo rant at least had some style, even if it was utterly useless at answering the question.

shadowgovt 5y ago

But if you're looking for something as specific as the documentation in Python itself for setattr, why wouldn't you do ``` > python Python 3.7.4 (default, Aug 13 2019, 20:35:49) [GCC 7.3.0] :: Anaconda, Inc. on linux Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. >>> help(setattr) ``` Or if you want the documentation on specifically Python.org, use Google search but type `setattr site:python.org` ?

kuang_eleven 5y ago

I just tried this, and the official python language docs came in third with SA just after. Now, for sure, it should be first, instead of the dumbed down tutorials, but it's certainly on the first page.

greggyb 5y ago

The sample you gave (and my experience in general) has official docs on the first page, but unfortunately below the fold. Top answers include various tutorial sites and an SO answer. Ninja edit: my default search engine is DDG.

OJFord 5y ago

> As an example, try looking for "python setattr" in your search engine of choice, !python setattr Or am I not allowed to add a character? :)

shpx 5y ago

On Chrome, go to chrome://settings/ Search for "search engines" Open "Manage search engines" Under "Other search engines" click on "Add" (on the right) Add this custom search engine: - Search engine: Python docs (first result) - Keyword: p - URL with %s in place of query: {google:baseURL}search?q=site:docs.python.org%2F3%2F+%s&btnI=I%27m+Feeling+Lucky Install the "Redirect Google Redirects" extension https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/redirect-google-redirects/nlacgjiklmjjejlgoclnjhndjaiempdo https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/redirect-google-re... (otherwise you'll see a "Redirect Notice" page) You can also add this search engine: - Python3 docs - pp - {google:baseURL}search?q=site%3Adocs.python.org%2F3%2F+%s Now, when you need to search for the Python documentation, just type "p setattr" and it'll go straight to https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html https://docs.python.org/3/library/functions.html or you can search "pp setattr" and it'll show you the search results, filtered only for docs.python.org/3/

Snarwin 5y ago
Alternatively: set DuckDuckGo as your default search engine and type `!python setattr`.
necovek 5y ago
Thank you for your elaborate answer. Now please provide it for Firefox. And Postgresql. And Flask. Now I am using aiohttp here. SQLAlchemy please. Pytest. Sorry, now in the Rust world. Get me some MDN for Javascript. w3.org for CSS3 spec, pleaaaseee! You see where this is going? Python.org was an example to illustrate a point.
- eyelidlessness 5y ago
  If you’re using a Mac, you might want to try Dash[1]. I’m sure similar tools exist on other platforms, but I’m not familiar enough to recommend them. 1: https://kapeli.com/dash https://kapeli.com/dash
- shpx 5y ago
  I'm not responding to your criticism of Google Search. I'm suggesting to anyone who shares your sentiment something that improved my dev experience. I also use the uBlacklist extension to hide W3Schools et al. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmialoiaghdehhbnbhkkgmjanfhe https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ublacklist/pncfbmi... I actually make these whenever I get frustrated by Google a few times. I have "m" for MDN... It's not hard you just need to pick a keyword. How to modify the URL in the search string should be pretty obvious. I think you'll find you don't need them for every library. It's mostly general tools with large user bases, like Python, where people are trying to make a living shitting up the search results.

SAI_Peregrinus 5y ago

I see docs.python.org as result 9 (of 10) in duckduckgo. And there's a helper box at the top right, with the summary from and link to docs.python.org

northwest65 5y ago
7th on DDG for me.

aix1 5y ago

> try looking for "python setattr" in your search engine of choice, and look for python.org documentation: none of them show it on the first page for me. I was curious and tried exactly that. For me, Google returns python.org as the third hit, above Stack Overflow.