4 ms·

Are you saying taking psychadelics makes you a degenerate? If so, why do you think so?

by Judgmentality 5y ago

Morvan 5y ago
no, the other way around.
- dwhit 5y ago
  Taking degenerates makes you a psychedelic?
- jjulius 5y ago
  Care to explain what you're trying to get at in greater detail?
  - Morvan 5y ago
    Sure, see my post above. What I'm getting at is that degeneracy leads to many things one of which is drug use, thus reflecting a deeper problem that legalization/decriminalization will not address but only obfuscate.
    - masklinn 5y ago
      > What I'm getting at is that degeneracy leads to many things one of which is drug use, thus reflecting a deeper problem that legalization/decriminalization will not address but only obfuscate. Ignoring your utterly repellent[0] word choice, you could not be more wrong. Policy changes in Portugal, Switzerland, or Oregon show that decriminalisation, by avoiding the, well, criminalisation of an often symptomatic behaviour, allows addicts to more reliably look for and get help and stability. Can't really try to find a job or get help from social services when going there might land you in a jail because there was a cop trolling for easy busts and pissing hot will blacklist you anyway. Criminalising drugs actively dysfunctionalizes addiction, and breaks addicts away from society and support. [0] and genuinely dangerous
    - jjulius 5y ago
      >... a deeper problem that legalization/decriminalization will not address but only obfuscate. Not really. The idea is to stop arresting people for it and shift the focus to treating addiction/drug abuse which, to your point, starts addressing some of that "degeneracy", which is a terrible word to describe root causes for drug abuse. You don't get people to be open to treating their abuse issues by calling them "degenerates".
    - cloverich 5y ago
      So criminalizing and imprisoning a person for drug addiction increases their chances of being re-integrated into society in a productive fashion? I thought a criminal record made it more difficult to land a job? Can you elaborate?
ticviking 5y ago
Most of the time when people call something "degenerate" it seems like they're making an argument based on the idea that progress depends on self-control and personal sovereignty. Everything I see labeled that way, psychedelics included, has a reputation of being either a cause of loss of self-control or a consequence of lacking self-control. If you want to be in the habit of understanding people who use words like that to describe others keeping that frame in mind may make their fears, and emotional reactions easier to understand, even when you disagree with their premise or judgements. (edit: fix a few typos)
- Morvan 5y ago
  You're trying to reframe the problem around the people who call it out. That's a good way to distract from said problem but not a way to address it. That kind of drug usage is a manifestation of degeneracy, itself part of a bigger cultural trend. Fixing the symptoms (or rather, absorbing them into legality so they seem less noteworthy) won't get rid of the root cause. edit: to respond to greyface- below since I am not longer allowed to reply. what you seem to be hinting at amounts to reasoning by extremes, a trite fallacy.
  - greyface- 5y ago
    Historically, treating "degeneracy" as a problem to be solved leads to some very, very dark places.
  - jjulius 5y ago
    >That kind of drug usage is a manifestation of degeneracy... Please define "degenerate". Would you consider individuals who hold successful, stable careers (they may even hold down a high-level role), have a family, no criminal records, for all intents and purposes are 'normal' people, but maybe once every few years they go camping with friends and consume psychedelics, to be a "degenerate"? Because to me it sounds like you're making a gigantic blanket generalization.
  - shakezula 5y ago
    The only fallacy being employed here is your own. You have to provide evidence that psychedelic use is somehow morally wrong, or that it causes a problem. So far you have presented no evidence to that end.

Are you saying taking psychadelics makes you a degenerate? If so, why do you think so?

Morvan 5y ago

no, the other way around.

dwhit 5y ago
Taking degenerates makes you a psychedelic?
jjulius 5y ago
Care to explain what you're trying to get at in greater detail?
- Morvan 5y ago
  Sure, see my post above. What I'm getting at is that degeneracy leads to many things one of which is drug use, thus reflecting a deeper problem that legalization/decriminalization will not address but only obfuscate.
  - masklinn 5y ago
    > What I'm getting at is that degeneracy leads to many things one of which is drug use, thus reflecting a deeper problem that legalization/decriminalization will not address but only obfuscate. Ignoring your utterly repellent[0] word choice, you could not be more wrong. Policy changes in Portugal, Switzerland, or Oregon show that decriminalisation, by avoiding the, well, criminalisation of an often symptomatic behaviour, allows addicts to more reliably look for and get help and stability. Can't really try to find a job or get help from social services when going there might land you in a jail because there was a cop trolling for easy busts and pissing hot will blacklist you anyway. Criminalising drugs actively dysfunctionalizes addiction, and breaks addicts away from society and support. [0] and genuinely dangerous
  - jjulius 5y ago
    >... a deeper problem that legalization/decriminalization will not address but only obfuscate. Not really. The idea is to stop arresting people for it and shift the focus to treating addiction/drug abuse which, to your point, starts addressing some of that "degeneracy", which is a terrible word to describe root causes for drug abuse. You don't get people to be open to treating their abuse issues by calling them "degenerates".
  - cloverich 5y ago
    So criminalizing and imprisoning a person for drug addiction increases their chances of being re-integrated into society in a productive fashion? I thought a criminal record made it more difficult to land a job? Can you elaborate?

ticviking 5y ago

Most of the time when people call something "degenerate" it seems like they're making an argument based on the idea that progress depends on self-control and personal sovereignty. Everything I see labeled that way, psychedelics included, has a reputation of being either a cause of loss of self-control or a consequence of lacking self-control. If you want to be in the habit of understanding people who use words like that to describe others keeping that frame in mind may make their fears, and emotional reactions easier to understand, even when you disagree with their premise or judgements. (edit: fix a few typos)

Morvan 5y ago
You're trying to reframe the problem around the people who call it out. That's a good way to distract from said problem but not a way to address it. That kind of drug usage is a manifestation of degeneracy, itself part of a bigger cultural trend. Fixing the symptoms (or rather, absorbing them into legality so they seem less noteworthy) won't get rid of the root cause. edit: to respond to greyface- below since I am not longer allowed to reply. what you seem to be hinting at amounts to reasoning by extremes, a trite fallacy.
- greyface- 5y ago
  Historically, treating "degeneracy" as a problem to be solved leads to some very, very dark places.
- jjulius 5y ago
  >That kind of drug usage is a manifestation of degeneracy... Please define "degenerate". Would you consider individuals who hold successful, stable careers (they may even hold down a high-level role), have a family, no criminal records, for all intents and purposes are 'normal' people, but maybe once every few years they go camping with friends and consume psychedelics, to be a "degenerate"? Because to me it sounds like you're making a gigantic blanket generalization.
- shakezula 5y ago
  The only fallacy being employed here is your own. You have to provide evidence that psychedelic use is somehow morally wrong, or that it causes a problem. So far you have presented no evidence to that end.