3 ms·

Seems like a classic case of "show me the incentives I'll show you the outcome". You want managers to have more turnover than seems to naturally happen, they'l

Seems like a classic case of "show me the incentives I'll show you the outcome". You want managers to have more turnover than seems to naturally happen, they'll respond by hiring under-qualified people they can fire and over-qualified people who will move on. It's really a no-brainier solution that any manager who's team isn't meeting the criteria to check the box can implement in order to check the box.

cratermoon 5y ago
It's the natural outcome of stack-ranking systems. If managers know that the bottom 10% of their direct reports are going to be shown the door, protect the whole team by hiring people just to rank them in the bottom. If a manager oversees 200 people, is more likely ~20 of them will be bad hires and can be let go, but if a manager only has five direct reports, losing just one, even if that one isn't all the great, means losing 20% of the team. On that note, I wonder how these forces might work to fix ideal team size to align with these flawed incentives.
- procombo 5y ago
  Genuine question. Who in their right mind has/wants more than 10 or 20 direct reports? Any more than that seems like absolute chaos. Most I ever had was 8. When it got larger than that I had people step up to active leadership roles. Eventually they did the same.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Depends on the nature of the work. In a tech workplace 20 is probably a real handful.
  - jfrunyon 5y ago
    There are plenty of teams at Amazon which could be significantly larger than that. How many employees do you think they have in every warehouse, and how many managers? ;)
    - procombo 5y ago
      True. :) There is definitely a difference in how Amazon scales management for warehouses. Elsewhere, it's "everyone a leader". My first true corporate experience was with big-four Deloitte. The culture there is "up or out". May sound sketchy to outsiders but it was actually a really supportive environment.
- kilroy123 5y ago
  I would be furious if I got hired at a place for this reason. I already feel very uncomfortable if I'm "the dumbest person in the room". Equally, I don't want to be the smartest.
duxup 5y ago
I worked at a company where each manager was given a set of percentages they could give as raises. Something like 15%, 10%, everyone else 5%. He decided his team was good enough so he submitted the paperwork for 15% for everyone. It worked, he never heard back and everyone got their raise. This went on for years. Then one day I'm in a meeting with a bunch of management and some small talk comes up about the set raises. My manager notes he doesn't follow the 'guidance' and all the other managers gasp. For years these guys just did what they thought was expected, didn't even try anything different. The managers at that company were more drones than anyone else... needless to say eventually all innovation slowed and the company feel into process hell.
- caseysoftware 5y ago
  At my last company, I found out they'd print any title on your business card and as long as it didn't include Director, VP, or Chief. Those triggered approval from higher up. I chose a different title every time I had cards printed. Outside of regulatory or compliance requirements, in many cases, "policies" are simply suggestions which can be ignored.
  - duxup 5y ago
    I did the same. I was a 'support ninja'.
- JBlue42 5y ago
  I find it really interesting. I had a great manager at my last company. Very good people person, would read on his own time to try and improve himself, etc. He had also been in our department the longest - upper management was always coming and going every 2-3 years. I asked him one time why he didn't want to go for one of those higher level positions and would rather stay at this sort of stressful one after a decade. He said he didn't want to deal with all the headaches at that level (more meetings with C-level people). He just wanted to keep his head down, take care of his team, and go home (a 1-2 hr commute each way). Given the precarity of much existence in the US, and the ability to be fired on a whim, it's no wonder the 'drone' mentality, of not bucking the system, is pretty normal. Suck up the BS until you can retire. I guess at least these days most of us don't have to deal with hot tar.

cratermoon 5y ago

It's the natural outcome of stack-ranking systems. If managers know that the bottom 10% of their direct reports are going to be shown the door, protect the whole team by hiring people just to rank them in the bottom. If a manager oversees 200 people, is more likely ~20 of them will be bad hires and can be let go, but if a manager only has five direct reports, losing just one, even if that one isn't all the great, means losing 20% of the team. On that note, I wonder how these forces might work to fix ideal team size to align with these flawed incentives.

procombo 5y ago
Genuine question. Who in their right mind has/wants more than 10 or 20 direct reports? Any more than that seems like absolute chaos. Most I ever had was 8. When it got larger than that I had people step up to active leadership roles. Eventually they did the same.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Depends on the nature of the work. In a tech workplace 20 is probably a real handful.
- jfrunyon 5y ago
  There are plenty of teams at Amazon which could be significantly larger than that. How many employees do you think they have in every warehouse, and how many managers? ;)
  - procombo 5y ago
    True. :) There is definitely a difference in how Amazon scales management for warehouses. Elsewhere, it's "everyone a leader". My first true corporate experience was with big-four Deloitte. The culture there is "up or out". May sound sketchy to outsiders but it was actually a really supportive environment.
kilroy123 5y ago
I would be furious if I got hired at a place for this reason. I already feel very uncomfortable if I'm "the dumbest person in the room". Equally, I don't want to be the smartest.

duxup 5y ago

I worked at a company where each manager was given a set of percentages they could give as raises. Something like 15%, 10%, everyone else 5%. He decided his team was good enough so he submitted the paperwork for 15% for everyone. It worked, he never heard back and everyone got their raise. This went on for years. Then one day I'm in a meeting with a bunch of management and some small talk comes up about the set raises. My manager notes he doesn't follow the 'guidance' and all the other managers gasp. For years these guys just did what they thought was expected, didn't even try anything different. The managers at that company were more drones than anyone else... needless to say eventually all innovation slowed and the company feel into process hell.

caseysoftware 5y ago
At my last company, I found out they'd print any title on your business card and as long as it didn't include Director, VP, or Chief. Those triggered approval from higher up. I chose a different title every time I had cards printed. Outside of regulatory or compliance requirements, in many cases, "policies" are simply suggestions which can be ignored.
- duxup 5y ago
  I did the same. I was a 'support ninja'.
JBlue42 5y ago
I find it really interesting. I had a great manager at my last company. Very good people person, would read on his own time to try and improve himself, etc. He had also been in our department the longest - upper management was always coming and going every 2-3 years. I asked him one time why he didn't want to go for one of those higher level positions and would rather stay at this sort of stressful one after a decade. He said he didn't want to deal with all the headaches at that level (more meetings with C-level people). He just wanted to keep his head down, take care of his team, and go home (a 1-2 hr commute each way). Given the precarity of much existence in the US, and the ability to be fired on a whim, it's no wonder the 'drone' mentality, of not bucking the system, is pretty normal. Suck up the BS until you can retire. I guess at least these days most of us don't have to deal with hot tar.