4 ms·

in my experience, the vast majority of node modules I have installed don't provide these tiny little functions, but are: - frameworks like react or express and

in my experience, the vast majority of node modules I have installed don't provide these tiny little functions, but are: - frameworks like react or express and extensions for the same - meaningful libraries like axios, ramda, date-fns or qs - transpiler/bundler enhancements like webpack loaders or babel presets I would prefer that the JS committee focused on bringing meaningful new capabilities to node and the browser that are currently lacking, like they did with the various HTML5 libraries, fetch(), ES classes and so on, rather than providing tiny functions that aren't even providing new functionality (array indexing is easy and idiomatic in JS). If there was no opportunity cost then sure, add tiny pointless builtin functions all day long.

lucideer 5y ago
You seem to be garnering a lot of downvotes without replies so I'll bite: it sounds from your comment like you've never looked into the subdependency tree of those frameworks and meaningful libraries that you list (which seems like it would be hard to miss tbh for anyone that's ever opened up the node_modules directory). Those tiny little libs providing tiny little functions are likely not direct dependencies of your application, rather dependencies of a subdependency of a subdependency of a subdependency of your preferred "meaningful" library.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  I'm aware of that. Unfortunately that's always going to be the case that some people who write libraries you depend on indirectly are not very good at programming and lean heavily on other dependencies to provide basic functionality. That will be the case regardless of how all-encompassing the stdlib is, and is entirely dependent on the culture of practice of the language you're using. JS is both beginner-friendly and the culture is focused on personal marketability, so you're going to get a lot of beginners land-rushing to put out basic libraries that don't do anything to cater to other beginners, in order to put the number of stars/npm downloads on their blog or CV. That's not going to change with the number of new core features.
  - lucideer 5y ago
    > That's not going to change with the number of new core features. I... don't really see why it wouldn't? What's your logic here?
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      A famous example: the is-odd and is-even libraries. It's not the kind of function that would be appropriate for a stdlib in my opinion, and yet developers who presumably don't know about the modulo operator incorporate these libraries into their projects at a high enough rate to engender 700,000/week of downloads. Even with all the basic functions one could hope for being brought into JS' core, there will still be tons of bizarre micro-libraries like these in the npm repository being used by developers who rely on libraries first when it comes to any given feature, because doing so is part of JS culture for the reasons I outlined before.
lhorie 5y ago
ramda and date-fns are full of little such functions... The fact that util packs like these and lodash exist is a sign that Javascript's stdlib lacks mechanisms to deal with various common patterns. FWIW, I consider `at` to be similar to some of the things you consider "new capabilities". `fetch` vs `XMLHttpRequest` is fairly analogous to `at` vs `arr[i]`, and similar arguments can be made about ES6 classes over prototypal classes, etc.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  ramda is an immutable library - javascript is immutable. Some functions of date-fns could probably be part of the core, and in fact that's one of the areas I wish the JS WG would focus on as Date is just not a very useful class. > `fetch` vs `XMLHttpRequest` is fairly analogous to `at` vs `arr[i]` If you consider all syntactic sugar to be equivalent, no matter how minor the change, then anything above a basic Turing machine implementation is fairly analogous. The problem with XHR is that the interface was really bad. The interface for arr[i] is not really bad.
  - pocketgrok 5y ago
    Regarding fixing Date, Temporal hit stage 3 recently: https://github.com/tc39/proposal-temporal https://github.com/tc39/proposal-temporal
  - lhorie 5y ago
    I mean it in the opposite sense, actually (that XMLHttpRequest - or more precisely, Microsoft's original version of it - was a leap forward, whereas fetch/axios/friends are, for the most part, merely a convenience over now established capabilities) Similarly, sure you can do point-free style w/ ramda's `R.add` but realistically, do you really? The fundamental game changer capability is the language's ability to do math in the first place; anything on top is arguably cherry on the cake. `at` seems uncannily similar in that regard. Wrt something being in a 3rd party library vs stdlib, I'll generally prefer a batteries included approach in JS because module resolution is complex enough to cause difficult problems to troubleshoot (peerDeps hell, complex symlinking semantics, library duplication in bundles, core.js explosion, package manager specific breakages, etc)

lucideer 5y ago

You seem to be garnering a lot of downvotes without replies so I'll bite: it sounds from your comment like you've never looked into the subdependency tree of those frameworks and meaningful libraries that you list (which seems like it would be hard to miss tbh for anyone that's ever opened up the node_modules directory). Those tiny little libs providing tiny little functions are likely not direct dependencies of your application, rather dependencies of a subdependency of a subdependency of a subdependency of your preferred "meaningful" library.

beaconstudios 5y ago
I'm aware of that. Unfortunately that's always going to be the case that some people who write libraries you depend on indirectly are not very good at programming and lean heavily on other dependencies to provide basic functionality. That will be the case regardless of how all-encompassing the stdlib is, and is entirely dependent on the culture of practice of the language you're using. JS is both beginner-friendly and the culture is focused on personal marketability, so you're going to get a lot of beginners land-rushing to put out basic libraries that don't do anything to cater to other beginners, in order to put the number of stars/npm downloads on their blog or CV. That's not going to change with the number of new core features.
- lucideer 5y ago
  > That's not going to change with the number of new core features. I... don't really see why it wouldn't? What's your logic here?
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    A famous example: the is-odd and is-even libraries. It's not the kind of function that would be appropriate for a stdlib in my opinion, and yet developers who presumably don't know about the modulo operator incorporate these libraries into their projects at a high enough rate to engender 700,000/week of downloads. Even with all the basic functions one could hope for being brought into JS' core, there will still be tons of bizarre micro-libraries like these in the npm repository being used by developers who rely on libraries first when it comes to any given feature, because doing so is part of JS culture for the reasons I outlined before.

lhorie 5y ago

ramda and date-fns are full of little such functions... The fact that util packs like these and lodash exist is a sign that Javascript's stdlib lacks mechanisms to deal with various common patterns. FWIW, I consider `at` to be similar to some of the things you consider "new capabilities". `fetch` vs `XMLHttpRequest` is fairly analogous to `at` vs `arr[i]`, and similar arguments can be made about ES6 classes over prototypal classes, etc.

beaconstudios 5y ago
ramda is an immutable library - javascript is immutable. Some functions of date-fns could probably be part of the core, and in fact that's one of the areas I wish the JS WG would focus on as Date is just not a very useful class. > `fetch` vs `XMLHttpRequest` is fairly analogous to `at` vs `arr[i]` If you consider all syntactic sugar to be equivalent, no matter how minor the change, then anything above a basic Turing machine implementation is fairly analogous. The problem with XHR is that the interface was really bad. The interface for arr[i] is not really bad.
- pocketgrok 5y ago
  Regarding fixing Date, Temporal hit stage 3 recently: https://github.com/tc39/proposal-temporal https://github.com/tc39/proposal-temporal
- lhorie 5y ago
  I mean it in the opposite sense, actually (that XMLHttpRequest - or more precisely, Microsoft's original version of it - was a leap forward, whereas fetch/axios/friends are, for the most part, merely a convenience over now established capabilities) Similarly, sure you can do point-free style w/ ramda's `R.add` but realistically, do you really? The fundamental game changer capability is the language's ability to do math in the first place; anything on top is arguably cherry on the cake. `at` seems uncannily similar in that regard. Wrt something being in a 3rd party library vs stdlib, I'll generally prefer a batteries included approach in JS because module resolution is complex enough to cause difficult problems to troubleshoot (peerDeps hell, complex symlinking semantics, library duplication in bundles, core.js explosion, package manager specific breakages, etc)