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In Europe, the EPC QR Code is taking off. Most bank apps support them, and they are making their way onto payment requests, both in paper and digitally. You the

by dhaavi 5y ago

In Europe, the EPC QR Code is taking off. Most bank apps support them, and they are making their way onto payment requests, both in paper and digitally. You then open your banking app and scan it manually. It's not exactly a link. Details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPC_QR_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPC_QR_code Would be nice for something more generic to take off, though.

dylan604 5y ago
Why are people so in love with the QR payment systems vs what Apple Pay has done? I'm not saying to be excited about being beholden to Apple, but their payment system just seems so much more efficient than the whole QR system. What am I missing?
- c0nsumer 5y ago
  It's a whole lot easier to slap QR codes on things than getting NFC tags and applying them.
  - tjohns 5y ago
    On the other hand, QR code payment systems only work while the user has a good network connection. NFC payment terminals can work while the user's device is offline, like rural areas with poor cellular coverage. Not to mention tap-and-pay cards that don't even need a battery. (Note: The few cases in the US I've seen QR code based payments, it's been for things like Alipay at a traditional point of sale terminal - which would also have a traditional card terminal with NFC reader. I could see QR codes being useful in other contexts, like paying a paper bill that came in the mail.)
    - rahkiin 5y ago
      In Europe these QR codes are also printer on invoices
    - thrashh 5y ago
      I live in Southern California and I pay via QR codes printed on the receipt at some restaurants. It is very convenient.
    - mro_name 5y ago
      How many bits are in the NFC token? Or is it more complex handshakes?
      - tjohns 5y ago
        It’s a complex handshake, very closely related to the same one used for the EMV chip used on modern credit cards.
    - jfrunyon 5y ago
      First, offline only works when an institution chooses to extend credit to the user. That's not nearly as widespread in other countries as it is in the US. Second, QR codes don't need a battery either. Third, having someone send money (i.e. authenticated user actively tells their provider/network to send money) is far superior to having merchants take money (i.e. charge a CC, even over NFC, even with temporary CC numbers).
      - amaccuish 5y ago
        Not necessarily. Debit cards in the UK can be trusted to work offline as certain "ceiling" is saved to the card with nearly every transaction, saying ok the owner has 10.000 in the bank, they probably have enough to cover a 4 GBP coffee (yes it's still technically credit but really?)
        jfrunyon 5y ago
        Exactly. As you said, that is credit. And it is not available to consumers in most other countries.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- bobbylarrybobby 5y ago
  You can be quite far from a QR code and it’ll still work. In addition, QR codes can be shared with others and saved for later.
- zyx321 5y ago
  I have to admit, I never tried Apple Pay. How do I install it on my Android phone?
  - thebean11 5y ago
    Not sure if this is sarcastic, Android has literally the same feature provided by Google.
    - iudqnolq 5y ago
      It randomly doesn't work until I reboot though.
      - thebean11 5y ago
        yeah stuff like this happens on iPhones too (although not Pay in my experience, Pay is solid).
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Pay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Pay
  - dylan604 5y ago
    you mean the part where I literally stated being beholden to Apple? Apple made contactless payments pretty pain free. If someone else hasn't taken up the baton, then that's kind of on them.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      Other people have taken up the baton though. Apple just so happens to have the ability to pre-install it on the phones of ~500 million MAU, so they "win".
      - thrashh 5y ago
        Google did it first I believe but I rarely used Google Pay even if it was installed because it wasn’t as deeply integrated into the OS. I find Apple Pay integration to be deeper and so I find it more convenient to access. However I haven’t used a Google phone in a while so maybe the situation has been improved. If you want someone to use a feature that you made, you need to put it out there. Everywhere.
- dhaavi 5y ago
  QR Codes are backwards compatible to every screen, paper and heck, even papyrus scrolls!
  - dylan604 5y ago
    The poor scribes having to write QR codes on that papyrus must have really cussed at their tasks. "Oops, I wonder if that stray drop of ink will cause problems. Not my problem though, so oh well." Then the next scribe making a copy of that scroll...
- psadri 5y ago
  Apple Pay is not available in all contexts (Eg Chrome on desktop) Shameless plug: https://gamma-pay.com https://gamma-pay.com solves this problem, using QR Codes.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Why are people so in love with the QR payment systems vs what Apple Pay has done? QR code payment systems don't require me to buy into the entire integrated Apple hardware/software ecosystem just to make payments. If you mean “NFC payments in general”, that’s a different question.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    My commment stipulates Apple Pay being part of the Apple system. If you really have to ask "is that what I meant", then yes it is a different question. So what's your answer?
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > My commment stipulates Apple Pay being part of the Apple system Your comment suggests you think it is, at worst, an acceptable cost for the convenience of Apple Pay over other alternatives. I’m saying that, for some of us, it is not.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Apple Pay is not an open standard.
- nucleardog 5y ago
  Cheap, easy, work on everything. Some huge proportion of payments in China are already done with QR codes (WeChat/AliPay). From the consumer side basically any phone that can (1) run apps (2) communicate with the internet and (3) has a camera supports payments this way. You may recognize that as "every single smartphone". A $100 little 2" Unihertz Jelly Pro supprots it. A $30 old used phone off of Aliexpress supports it. From the merchant end, there's no extra hardware requirements. Literally just print a QR code and stick it on the counter and you're ready to accept payments. (E.g., https://sampi.co/wechat-pay/ https://sampi.co/wechat-pay/) Some of the smaller shops just have you show them your screen showing the payment being sent. Others will keep a phone or other device on hand to confirm the payment was received on their end. Half of the value of a payment system is in it being ubiquitous. The onboarding experience with QR codes is so hilariously simple and accessible that it's much easier to get that market penetration.
- vmception 5y ago
  What are you referring to? My favorite so far has been many restaurants giving a bill with a QR code that opens up a website that allows for in browser Apple Pay. Seems not to be separate from QR codes to me, but I still like the Apple Pay portion and total integration Are you referring to the browser thing? Or the NFC thing which isn't used in this payment flow?
- vagrantJin 5y ago
  > Apple, but their payment system just seems so much more efficient than the whole QR system I'm hoping this is sarcasm and I missed the joke. I really hope I didn't get the joke.
djhworld 5y ago
Ahhhhh I'm so glad to see that this exists. I had an "idea" of having something like this in the past, to save having to manually type bank account numbers into a thing (and risk typos...), instead you just scan a QR code with the data already embedded and it's good to go. The only thing that nagged me in the back of my head was how do you verify that the QR code hasn't been tampered with? I mean you could say the same about just plain text and someone replacing the bank account details (replacing with their own), or sticking an imposter QR code over the top and hoping people don't notice. Does this EPC code account for tampering/misuse? I guess you'd expect the bank to double check the payee name + bank account number and reject anything that does not match.
- kiwijamo 5y ago
  Here in New Zealand the payee name and the bank account number are not checked by banks for domestic electronic payments. I can only assume this is standard practice overseas as well.
  - beojan 5y ago
    They often are checked now in the UK, after a lot of complaints and scams.
- dhaavi 5y ago
  The only "tampering protection" is the error correction by the QR code. Proper protection would need a PKI, which would make it so complex, no one would use it. You always have to bullshit check the data anyway. Payee name + bank account number are _not_ checked in Austria. I guess this is similar to other EU countries, as @kiwijamo also suggested.

by dhaavi 5y ago

dylan604 5y ago

Why are people so in love with the QR payment systems vs what Apple Pay has done? I'm not saying to be excited about being beholden to Apple, but their payment system just seems so much more efficient than the whole QR system. What am I missing?

c0nsumer 5y ago
It's a whole lot easier to slap QR codes on things than getting NFC tags and applying them.
- tjohns 5y ago
  On the other hand, QR code payment systems only work while the user has a good network connection. NFC payment terminals can work while the user's device is offline, like rural areas with poor cellular coverage. Not to mention tap-and-pay cards that don't even need a battery. (Note: The few cases in the US I've seen QR code based payments, it's been for things like Alipay at a traditional point of sale terminal - which would also have a traditional card terminal with NFC reader. I could see QR codes being useful in other contexts, like paying a paper bill that came in the mail.)
  - rahkiin 5y ago
    In Europe these QR codes are also printer on invoices
  - thrashh 5y ago
    I live in Southern California and I pay via QR codes printed on the receipt at some restaurants. It is very convenient.
  - mro_name 5y ago
    How many bits are in the NFC token? Or is it more complex handshakes?
    - tjohns 5y ago
      It’s a complex handshake, very closely related to the same one used for the EMV chip used on modern credit cards.
  - jfrunyon 5y ago
    First, offline only works when an institution chooses to extend credit to the user. That's not nearly as widespread in other countries as it is in the US. Second, QR codes don't need a battery either. Third, having someone send money (i.e. authenticated user actively tells their provider/network to send money) is far superior to having merchants take money (i.e. charge a CC, even over NFC, even with temporary CC numbers).
    - amaccuish 5y ago
      Not necessarily. Debit cards in the UK can be trusted to work offline as certain "ceiling" is saved to the card with nearly every transaction, saying ok the owner has 10.000 in the bank, they probably have enough to cover a 4 GBP coffee (yes it's still technically credit but really?)
      - jfrunyon 5y ago
        Exactly. As you said, that is credit. And it is not available to consumers in most other countries.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
bobbylarrybobby 5y ago
You can be quite far from a QR code and it’ll still work. In addition, QR codes can be shared with others and saved for later.
zyx321 5y ago
I have to admit, I never tried Apple Pay. How do I install it on my Android phone?
- thebean11 5y ago
  Not sure if this is sarcastic, Android has literally the same feature provided by Google.
  - iudqnolq 5y ago
    It randomly doesn't work until I reboot though.
    - thebean11 5y ago
      yeah stuff like this happens on iPhones too (although not Pay in my experience, Pay is solid).
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Pay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Pay
- dylan604 5y ago
  you mean the part where I literally stated being beholden to Apple? Apple made contactless payments pretty pain free. If someone else hasn't taken up the baton, then that's kind of on them.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    Other people have taken up the baton though. Apple just so happens to have the ability to pre-install it on the phones of ~500 million MAU, so they "win".
    - thrashh 5y ago
      Google did it first I believe but I rarely used Google Pay even if it was installed because it wasn’t as deeply integrated into the OS. I find Apple Pay integration to be deeper and so I find it more convenient to access. However I haven’t used a Google phone in a while so maybe the situation has been improved. If you want someone to use a feature that you made, you need to put it out there. Everywhere.
dhaavi 5y ago
QR Codes are backwards compatible to every screen, paper and heck, even papyrus scrolls!
- dylan604 5y ago
  The poor scribes having to write QR codes on that papyrus must have really cussed at their tasks. "Oops, I wonder if that stray drop of ink will cause problems. Not my problem though, so oh well." Then the next scribe making a copy of that scroll...
psadri 5y ago
Apple Pay is not available in all contexts (Eg Chrome on desktop) Shameless plug: https://gamma-pay.com https://gamma-pay.com solves this problem, using QR Codes.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Why are people so in love with the QR payment systems vs what Apple Pay has done? QR code payment systems don't require me to buy into the entire integrated Apple hardware/software ecosystem just to make payments. If you mean “NFC payments in general”, that’s a different question.
- dylan604 5y ago
  My commment stipulates Apple Pay being part of the Apple system. If you really have to ask "is that what I meant", then yes it is a different question. So what's your answer?
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > My commment stipulates Apple Pay being part of the Apple system Your comment suggests you think it is, at worst, an acceptable cost for the convenience of Apple Pay over other alternatives. I’m saying that, for some of us, it is not.
smoldesu 5y ago
Apple Pay is not an open standard.
nucleardog 5y ago
Cheap, easy, work on everything. Some huge proportion of payments in China are already done with QR codes (WeChat/AliPay). From the consumer side basically any phone that can (1) run apps (2) communicate with the internet and (3) has a camera supports payments this way. You may recognize that as "every single smartphone". A $100 little 2" Unihertz Jelly Pro supprots it. A $30 old used phone off of Aliexpress supports it. From the merchant end, there's no extra hardware requirements. Literally just print a QR code and stick it on the counter and you're ready to accept payments. (E.g., https://sampi.co/wechat-pay/ https://sampi.co/wechat-pay/) Some of the smaller shops just have you show them your screen showing the payment being sent. Others will keep a phone or other device on hand to confirm the payment was received on their end. Half of the value of a payment system is in it being ubiquitous. The onboarding experience with QR codes is so hilariously simple and accessible that it's much easier to get that market penetration.
vmception 5y ago
What are you referring to? My favorite so far has been many restaurants giving a bill with a QR code that opens up a website that allows for in browser Apple Pay. Seems not to be separate from QR codes to me, but I still like the Apple Pay portion and total integration Are you referring to the browser thing? Or the NFC thing which isn't used in this payment flow?
vagrantJin 5y ago
> Apple, but their payment system just seems so much more efficient than the whole QR system I'm hoping this is sarcasm and I missed the joke. I really hope I didn't get the joke.

djhworld 5y ago

Ahhhhh I'm so glad to see that this exists. I had an "idea" of having something like this in the past, to save having to manually type bank account numbers into a thing (and risk typos...), instead you just scan a QR code with the data already embedded and it's good to go. The only thing that nagged me in the back of my head was how do you verify that the QR code hasn't been tampered with? I mean you could say the same about just plain text and someone replacing the bank account details (replacing with their own), or sticking an imposter QR code over the top and hoping people don't notice. Does this EPC code account for tampering/misuse? I guess you'd expect the bank to double check the payee name + bank account number and reject anything that does not match.

kiwijamo 5y ago
Here in New Zealand the payee name and the bank account number are not checked by banks for domestic electronic payments. I can only assume this is standard practice overseas as well.
- beojan 5y ago
  They often are checked now in the UK, after a lot of complaints and scams.
dhaavi 5y ago
The only "tampering protection" is the error correction by the QR code. Proper protection would need a PKI, which would make it so complex, no one would use it. You always have to bullshit check the data anyway. Payee name + bank account number are _not_ checked in Austria. I guess this is similar to other EU countries, as @kiwijamo also suggested.