4 ms·

> replace bitcoin Replace Bitcoin as a speculative asset? Because I don't really see Bitcoin as anything else. Just to clarify why, according to Coinmarketcap,

> replace bitcoin Replace Bitcoin as a speculative asset? Because I don't really see Bitcoin as anything else. Just to clarify why, according to Coinmarketcap, trade volume for june 1st was about $35B. The transaction volume on the actual Blockchain was about $5B, according to Blockchain explorer. So yesterday, 85% of Bitcoin transactions wasn't even on the blockchain. They were trades within markets that use the same old technology that banks do. They (often) have the same KYC that banks do. And have no direct connection to the blockchain. I doubt most people who 'own crypto' actually own any crypto and they just have the right to crypto that is stored in the wallets of their markets. I realize this rant went a bit off topic, but I really wonder what 'replace bitcoin' means in this context. Edit: I realized that coinmarketcap and blockhain explorer numbers are probably cumulative, so it'd be more like 87,5% of transactions off blockchain. Doesn't really change anything about my point, just thought it was worth an edit.

TeMPOraL 5y ago
Yeah, I think people forget what is it that makes cryptocurrencies popular. It's not about all the ideals about decentralization, innovation, working around dictatorships and Big Banks, etc. Few people understand any of this, and even less people care. Cryptocurrencies are popular first and foremost because they streamlined the ability to run financial scams, which otherwise are much more difficult to pull off. Secondly, because they make it easier to gamble. Thirdly, because they make it easier to exchange illegal goods and services.
- zenethian 5y ago
  Well the entire country of El Salvador now believes it to be the best option they have as a currency of choice. So I guess your points might be valid for some very minority stake, but they're popular because you can trade them like stocks and even trade futures on them to make money. So sure, like all financial systems, it's being used for bad things. But cash is used far more often than anything else to trade money for bad things.
hansel_der 5y ago
> So yesterday, 85% of Bitcoin transactions wasn't even on the blockchain. stock trading also happens mostly outside of stock exchanges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_securities_depository https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_securities_depository
- AndrewStephens 5y ago
  Yeah, but people that own stocks do not typically go on and on about how the stock market is a revolutionary technology that changes everything. Stocks are worth something no matter how they are traded. Supposedly, it is the blockchain that makes bitcoin viable but if most transactions are off chain then what is the point? A thought experiment: at what point does the blockchain cease to add value? What if 99% of transactions were off the blockchain? What if all transactions were off-chain? At the moment it looks to my untrained eye like a few big exchanges do almost all of the trading internally without moving coins, keeping the expensive blockchain transactions for batched redemptions between exchanges. How is this different that what normal banks do with cash?
  - zenethian 5y ago
    You should go read the newspapers about when the stock market first formed. People raved about it for a decade...
  - donkeyd 5y ago
    Thanks, this is exactly the point I was trying to make!
  - aaronax 5y ago
    It is different mainly in that if you want to move around large amounts of money outside of the banking system you can do so without using briefcases/trucks full of physical cash. Whether that movement is illegal or legal is probably at a similar ratio for both crypto and USD physical cash.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
gregwebs 5y ago
This is a straw man argument. If Bitcoin is useful, it is for final settlement for larger institutions. Of course a proper rollup that works at scale is missing.

TeMPOraL 5y ago

Yeah, I think people forget what is it that makes cryptocurrencies popular. It's not about all the ideals about decentralization, innovation, working around dictatorships and Big Banks, etc. Few people understand any of this, and even less people care. Cryptocurrencies are popular first and foremost because they streamlined the ability to run financial scams, which otherwise are much more difficult to pull off. Secondly, because they make it easier to gamble. Thirdly, because they make it easier to exchange illegal goods and services.

zenethian 5y ago
Well the entire country of El Salvador now believes it to be the best option they have as a currency of choice. So I guess your points might be valid for some very minority stake, but they're popular because you can trade them like stocks and even trade futures on them to make money. So sure, like all financial systems, it's being used for bad things. But cash is used far more often than anything else to trade money for bad things.

hansel_der 5y ago

> So yesterday, 85% of Bitcoin transactions wasn't even on the blockchain. stock trading also happens mostly outside of stock exchanges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_securities_depository https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_securities_depository

AndrewStephens 5y ago
Yeah, but people that own stocks do not typically go on and on about how the stock market is a revolutionary technology that changes everything. Stocks are worth something no matter how they are traded. Supposedly, it is the blockchain that makes bitcoin viable but if most transactions are off chain then what is the point? A thought experiment: at what point does the blockchain cease to add value? What if 99% of transactions were off the blockchain? What if all transactions were off-chain? At the moment it looks to my untrained eye like a few big exchanges do almost all of the trading internally without moving coins, keeping the expensive blockchain transactions for batched redemptions between exchanges. How is this different that what normal banks do with cash?
- zenethian 5y ago
  You should go read the newspapers about when the stock market first formed. People raved about it for a decade...
- donkeyd 5y ago
  Thanks, this is exactly the point I was trying to make!
- aaronax 5y ago
  It is different mainly in that if you want to move around large amounts of money outside of the banking system you can do so without using briefcases/trucks full of physical cash. Whether that movement is illegal or legal is probably at a similar ratio for both crypto and USD physical cash.
  - shkkmo 5y ago

gregwebs 5y ago

This is a straw man argument. If Bitcoin is useful, it is for final settlement for larger institutions. Of course a proper rollup that works at scale is missing.