6 ms·

e.g. in classical music, you can tell subtle differences if you've listened the piece live or performed it inside an orchestra Can you explain this a bit more?

• bayindirh 5y ago
  In classical music, the performance is of course unique, but the piece is not. What I mean is, even if the arrangement has changed for a particular piece, the underlying score, the foundation is same. As you know, classical music is layered. It can be scaled for different sized orchestras, which can be akin to tessellation in graphics. You can add more nuanced scores or details if your orchestra has enough members. Of course this has a limit, which is the full score written by the original composer. Similarly, you can remove some layers or simplify the piece if you're smaller orchestra without compromising the piece. What I tried to say is, if you've listened the piece from or performed with a relatively big orchestra, you'll know that which instrument shall be there, where the small optional triplets are, how the piece should sound or where's that little oboe shall come in, where the little cymbal adds that little crash, or how the harmonics affect each other and create that atmosphere. So, you'll notice something is missing or off or not as it should be especially in the high end. Classical music has a lot of perceptual tricks under its sleeves to create a specific ambiance and sense of space and most of this lays in the higher end of the spectrum, and they get shaved off first with lossy compression. Hope this helps, because it's something more felt than can be said with words, how you can't really hear the double bass but feel how it's there. It's that kind of perception. Edit: Just wanted to add that one musician's or orchestra's specific style of course will be different, but a good orchestra is very faithful to the original score of the piece. Even if an orchestra is playing a little fast or more aggressive, or a simplified version, base instrumentation and atmosphere is the same (as long as the orchestra is not doing Metallica S&M style play the right thing with wrong instruments kind of deliberate arrangement). Another extreme example would be the band Pink Martini. They have an on-stage audio magic which allows them live with the exact sound of their studio recordings, albeit live. It's surreal to experience.
  • drw85 5y ago
    But that still had nothing to do with comparing lossy vs lossless, or am I misunderstanding you? How does a live performance that you hear with your ears at a specific place in a room help you pick out missing parts in a different recording, played by different people in a different place, recorded with multiple mics and then mixed and mastered?
    • bayindirh 5y ago
      It has, but in a different w.r.t comparing different sound systems with the same recording. Let me try to explain. You might know some of the following, sorry if it's a re-explanation. In a proper concert hall, sound is expected to be homogenous, so you should be able listen to the orchestra equally well, with the same sound balance (or mix) regardless of the place you sit. Similarly, recordings are done from suspended or positioned (and ideally tuned) mics, so you can capture the orchestra as someone sitting in the audience. At least this is how our performances were recorded. The mastering is then done to match the recorded sound to the hall's sound, and balance any imperfections or clean the orchestra's inner talk between pieces (yes, we communicate a lot :D ). When you listen an orchestra live, you will have a lossless blueprint of the piece in your mind (track by track if you can separate the instruments). If you can get a recording of the same performance, you can compare it with the live performance. That's absolutely correct. But if you listen to a recording of a different orchestra playing the same piece, the arrangement and instrumentation will be same (you may have 8 violins instead of 12 but, violins won't be changed by violas most of the time). So, the atmosphere of the piece will be the same. Assuming the recording is done by competent folks, the spectrum would be the same (~20Hz -> ~20Khz roughly). After some point, even if you're listening to a different orchestra, you can start to point to the things that should be there. It's very hard to describe, but every instrument has a base sound and details on top of it (you can tell they're all trumpets, but different brands or models. Similarly you can tell they're double basses but they're different in some ways). That base sound starts to erode too when you have a lossy compression, and in turn it affects the sound of the piece, regardless of the finer details (which are mostly affected by resins, bows, styles, etc.). It's a "these two instruments shouldn't interact like this in this piece. Something is missing!" kind of feeling. This missing part is either something at the high or low end, almost an harmonic. It's not noticeable unless you're looking for it, but it's there. That difference can be clearly heard by re-encoding a FLAC as a high bitrate MP3 and taking their differences. It's a hiss-like sound by contains a lot of the said harmonics and you can almost listen to the piece just by listening to it. Someone did that and published the differences, but it was some years ago. I'm not sure I can replicate or find the article. That article took differences of the exact same recording but, it can be applied by your brain to different recordings after some time. Hope I've succeeded to clarify it somewhat. It's something very hard to describe by words. Please ask more questions if you want to. :) I'd be happy to try more.