4 ms·

I'm always a bit worried about using a Windows 10 machine in the lab. You never really know when it will decide to update and randomly reboot (or show a fullscr

by fsh 5y ago

I'm always a bit worried about using a Windows 10 machine in the lab. You never really know when it will decide to update and randomly reboot (or show a fullscreen ad for Edge). Unfortunately with the EOL of Windows 7 there aren't many alternatives. Lots of lab hardware (especially from small manufacturers) is still Windows only. That is a problem you didn't have with your 386 machine running DOS.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
Isn't that precisely what LTSC is meant for?
- asciimov 5y ago
  If you can get a license for it and if the software will run on it.
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    You can buy a license just fine (with some finagling) from a reseller, even though it's pricey. I don't see any reason why your software should refuse to run under LTSC, unless it's too reliant on parts of the OS that shouldn't be depended on anyway. I've had games etc run just fine on it.
    - Jtsummers 5y ago
      > I don't see any reason why your software should refuse to run under LTSC, unless it's too reliant on parts of the OS that shouldn't be depended on anyway. I've had games etc run just fine on it. Which seems to be the standard for a lot of proprietary software. The objectives are to: get the software shipped ASAP, lock in the users. This often means cutting corner. For instance, if there's a Windows public API to see who's logged in and their permissions that works across OSes they might use that, but you can also check the username directly. Or, what I've seen, they'll check the home directory path and assume that's the user that's logged in. Oops, the home directory moved between OS versions so our "test who's logged in" method only works on Windows ??? and not the more recent versions or even older versions. But that's fine, our customers are paying us $10k/seat and have no alternatives. Some users may find a workaround, but most won't.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
noobermin 5y ago
I have been trying to get my experimental group to move off their computers off windows but I unfortunately don't have that sway, plus they're wedded to labview. That's the one value of linux even with its warts.
- laserphysicist_ 5y ago
  We managed to get away from proprietary software for our simulations needs and moved to oss that runs on both Windows and Linux. But we have not been able to get rid of Labview & Windows in the lab. I'll be happy to hear about your experience here...
  - fsh 5y ago
    In my field, labview has been mostly replaced by python for building experiment control systems. Some groups manage to run their labs on Linux with maybe one dedicated Windows machine for stubborn hardware. In my setups we use quite a lot of Windows-only hardware, to Linux is not really an option.
    - laserphysicist_ 5y ago
      OK, do you have any reference for the python modules they use? I must admit that for GUI, nice interactive plots, motion control & DAQ, it's a bit difficult to be on par with Labview. In particular, it's usually quite easy and fast in Labview to hack together a small VI to do something like move, grab data, plot, repeat with the ability to zoom, change scale, etc while the acquisition is running. Do you know of any example combining all or part of these functionalities?
      - fsh 5y ago
        I like using PyQt5 for the GUI and PyQtGraph for interactive plots. Using matplotlib as a Qt widget is also possible, but it is quite slow and tends to leak memory when dynamically updating the data. On Windows I use the NI VISA library with pyvisa for most hardware access. There are open source alternatives for Linux such as pyvisa-py and linux-gpib that work quite well for most devices connected with Ethernet, USB, and GPIB.
pletnes 5y ago
Even on windows xp/7, I know people running hours-to-days long simulations routinely unplugging their ethernet so the IT department / windows daemons / tooth fairy won’t randomly reboot it and make a project late.
- laserphysicist_ 5y ago
  If only we could do that! But with ldap accounts, nfs-mounted files and Labview licence server, everything stops working whenever the network is down/unreachable...
  - pletnes 5y ago
    License servers taught me the lesson of open source software.
bellyfullofbac 5y ago
There are surely certificates with expiration dates on these systems, so when the internal clock goes beyond that date, some stuff will stop working. I guess then someone would write a date mapping tool (calendars repeat themselves every 28 years, with matching weekdays and leap years, although in 2100 this rule will break).
miked85 5y ago
> (or show a fullscreen ad for Edge) I am not a Windows user, so maybe a dumb question, but is this actually a thing?
- codingdave 5y ago
  I am a windows user, and have never seen one. I'm not saying they don't exist, but it sounds more like something added on by whomever manufactured the PC, not a core part of the OS.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  I've never seen one. Centre-of-the-screen and taking up about 50% of the area, yes, but never a maximised or full-screen window.
- fsh 5y ago
  I have seen this screen after an update on my laptop: https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/11/15/windows-10-is-now-nagging-users-with-microsoft-edge-recommendations/ https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/11/15/windows-10-is-now-n...
grishka 5y ago
Connecting your critical equipment to the internet is never a good idea. And if you don't connect it to the internet, the support status of the OS it runs shouldn't really matter much.
- fsh 5y ago
  There is a very large region between "has to be completely air-gapped" and "better should not reboot randomly".
  - grishka 5y ago
    Then maybe only give it access to the LAN so it's easier to get data off of it. There's also a hacky workaround where you disable all of 5 services that relate to Windows Update to effectively prevent Windows from knowing updating software is a thing. You do have to edit the registry manually to do this. If you leave at least one, it'll turn the other ones back on. This is a very much malware-like behavior tbh. And, of course, do this at your own risk because Windows is written in C and known for containing obscene numbers of nasty vulnerabilities resulting from manual memory mismanagement.
SAI_Peregrinus 5y ago
It's possible to "break" Windows Update reversibly (I discovered this by accident on a computer with a large HDD and small SSD a while back). Change the location of the default `ProgramFilesDir` and `ProgramFilesDir (x86)` keys in `HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion` to not be `C:\Program Files` and `C:\Program Files (x86)` respectively. EG move them to a different drive. Don't move the various programs inside. IME, everything works, except that Windows Update will check only the new location for some Microsoft programs, not fall back to the default, and fail with an unintelligible error code.

by fsh 5y ago

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago

Isn't that precisely what LTSC is meant for?

asciimov 5y ago
If you can get a license for it and if the software will run on it.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  You can buy a license just fine (with some finagling) from a reseller, even though it's pricey. I don't see any reason why your software should refuse to run under LTSC, unless it's too reliant on parts of the OS that shouldn't be depended on anyway. I've had games etc run just fine on it.
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    > I don't see any reason why your software should refuse to run under LTSC, unless it's too reliant on parts of the OS that shouldn't be depended on anyway. I've had games etc run just fine on it. Which seems to be the standard for a lot of proprietary software. The objectives are to: get the software shipped ASAP, lock in the users. This often means cutting corner. For instance, if there's a Windows public API to see who's logged in and their permissions that works across OSes they might use that, but you can also check the username directly. Or, what I've seen, they'll check the home directory path and assume that's the user that's logged in. Oops, the home directory moved between OS versions so our "test who's logged in" method only works on Windows ??? and not the more recent versions or even older versions. But that's fine, our customers are paying us $10k/seat and have no alternatives. Some users may find a workaround, but most won't.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

noobermin 5y ago

I have been trying to get my experimental group to move off their computers off windows but I unfortunately don't have that sway, plus they're wedded to labview. That's the one value of linux even with its warts.

laserphysicist_ 5y ago
We managed to get away from proprietary software for our simulations needs and moved to oss that runs on both Windows and Linux. But we have not been able to get rid of Labview & Windows in the lab. I'll be happy to hear about your experience here...
- fsh 5y ago
  In my field, labview has been mostly replaced by python for building experiment control systems. Some groups manage to run their labs on Linux with maybe one dedicated Windows machine for stubborn hardware. In my setups we use quite a lot of Windows-only hardware, to Linux is not really an option.
  - laserphysicist_ 5y ago
    OK, do you have any reference for the python modules they use? I must admit that for GUI, nice interactive plots, motion control & DAQ, it's a bit difficult to be on par with Labview. In particular, it's usually quite easy and fast in Labview to hack together a small VI to do something like move, grab data, plot, repeat with the ability to zoom, change scale, etc while the acquisition is running. Do you know of any example combining all or part of these functionalities?
    - fsh 5y ago
      I like using PyQt5 for the GUI and PyQtGraph for interactive plots. Using matplotlib as a Qt widget is also possible, but it is quite slow and tends to leak memory when dynamically updating the data. On Windows I use the NI VISA library with pyvisa for most hardware access. There are open source alternatives for Linux such as pyvisa-py and linux-gpib that work quite well for most devices connected with Ethernet, USB, and GPIB.

pletnes 5y ago

Even on windows xp/7, I know people running hours-to-days long simulations routinely unplugging their ethernet so the IT department / windows daemons / tooth fairy won’t randomly reboot it and make a project late.

laserphysicist_ 5y ago
If only we could do that! But with ldap accounts, nfs-mounted files and Labview licence server, everything stops working whenever the network is down/unreachable...
- pletnes 5y ago
  License servers taught me the lesson of open source software.

bellyfullofbac 5y ago

There are surely certificates with expiration dates on these systems, so when the internal clock goes beyond that date, some stuff will stop working. I guess then someone would write a date mapping tool (calendars repeat themselves every 28 years, with matching weekdays and leap years, although in 2100 this rule will break).

miked85 5y ago

> (or show a fullscreen ad for Edge) I am not a Windows user, so maybe a dumb question, but is this actually a thing?

codingdave 5y ago
I am a windows user, and have never seen one. I'm not saying they don't exist, but it sounds more like something added on by whomever manufactured the PC, not a core part of the OS.
wizzwizz4 5y ago
I've never seen one. Centre-of-the-screen and taking up about 50% of the area, yes, but never a maximised or full-screen window.
fsh 5y ago
I have seen this screen after an update on my laptop: https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/11/15/windows-10-is-now-nagging-users-with-microsoft-edge-recommendations/ https://www.windowslatest.com/2020/11/15/windows-10-is-now-n...

grishka 5y ago

Connecting your critical equipment to the internet is never a good idea. And if you don't connect it to the internet, the support status of the OS it runs shouldn't really matter much.

fsh 5y ago
There is a very large region between "has to be completely air-gapped" and "better should not reboot randomly".
- grishka 5y ago
  Then maybe only give it access to the LAN so it's easier to get data off of it. There's also a hacky workaround where you disable all of 5 services that relate to Windows Update to effectively prevent Windows from knowing updating software is a thing. You do have to edit the registry manually to do this. If you leave at least one, it'll turn the other ones back on. This is a very much malware-like behavior tbh. And, of course, do this at your own risk because Windows is written in C and known for containing obscene numbers of nasty vulnerabilities resulting from manual memory mismanagement.

SAI_Peregrinus 5y ago

It's possible to "break" Windows Update reversibly (I discovered this by accident on a computer with a large HDD and small SSD a while back). Change the location of the default `ProgramFilesDir` and `ProgramFilesDir (x86)` keys in `HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion` to not be `C:\Program Files` and `C:\Program Files (x86)` respectively. EG move them to a different drive. Don't move the various programs inside. IME, everything works, except that Windows Update will check only the new location for some Microsoft programs, not fall back to the default, and fail with an unintelligible error code.